Ok, our [WKSA] punches are straight punches, with two innermost knuckles, twisting the arm... It's all supposed to protect our wrists from impact and use most of our avaliable power. Kenpo has (I believe; I've only done some Kajukenbo seminars) punches with the outermost knucle, slightly ascending so they can hit better some soft points (smaller punching area, angle...). Wu Shu (and this one I can't remember were I read it) uses two outermost knucles, fist in vertical with a slight twist of the wrist upwards. They acknowledge that it's weaker, but also that it has less commitment and it's safer. Part of my question is "why is it weaker?" The other part, the one that I'm focusing now, is "why don't their wrists suffer?". Thanks.
We use the two knuckles closest to the thumb because when you punch the radius (the biggest bone in your forearm) lines up with those two fingers thus adding support/strength. Also the first two knuckles (index,middle) have a more dense(compact) bone structure, making them harder.
Ok. First time I have an anatomically sound explanation (thanks & kudos). Still, why don't the others do it so, then? Also, when I've heard of someone having problems, it's always been hand/wrist troubles, not arm, so maybe something worthwhile could be done using cubitus?
Greetings everyone, I just thought I would join in on this discussion by posting a brief excerpt from the new article written by Master Sims regarding the reverse punch. Punching Techniques (pt2) Whenever a sequence of movement is employed to impart momentum to an object or person, each lever must make its contribution at the instant of impact or the instant of release. Levers with the greatest mass possess the greatest inertia and must be moved first, followed by the smaller levers moved last in the sequence. In the case of a right reverse punch as you rotate forward and to the left you must coordinate and control the sequence of movements so that the legs can provide a driving force and stability. This provides a platform from which the torso can transmit this force from the core to the arms. The shoulder has the largest mass and must be moved and then stabilized first, followed by the elbow, and then the wrist, which is the smallest and the fastest segment. Martial artists should understand the basic function of the forearm and wrist during a punch, which provides an axial compression. The wrist is pronated just prior or upon impact creating stability in the forearm so that the power that was developed previously is not lost, but transmitted into the target. When the fist hits its intended target the force of the blow will travel from the knuckles of the index and middle finger into the target and back up through the hand and wrist into the forearm. The force is then distributed by the muscles of the forearm and the interosseous membrane, which lies between the ulna and radial bone. The force is then transmitted up the forearm to the elbow joint via the ulna into the upper arm, then the shoulder girdle, down the spinal column, pelvis, down the right leg into the ground. ... This little bit of information can hopefully provide some insight into this discussion. The entire article is too long to post on here but hopefully this small segment can generate some good conversation.
i have a question then? boxers tend to have alot of hand problems ie broken hands and such, they twist at impact could this be the cause of all their problems? i punch with a vertical fist, except for hooks and upper cuts, concentrating on ringer finger knuckle and i donb't have hand problems but i'm curios to see what you all have to say
"reverse" as in "Gak Gwon"? [I'm using WKSA terminology] In this case, there's something of an example of what I don't understand. In Gak Gwon the impact is not longitudinal to the arm, but perpendicular. So, what does hitting with index & middle knuckles offer? Sorry if I'm kind of dumb.
No. It's mostly to do with the fact that they hit harder, hit harder surfaces and throw more punches per training session.
Stump perfectly summed it up in just two lines. There is a PBS/Discovery Channel documentary called something like "Fight Science". In one segment they measured the punching power behind the punches of different martial artists. The Kung Fu practitioner (I don't recal the style) hit the target with only half the power of the boxer. In addition, the Kung Fu practitioner spent several seconds preparing his shot, something he would not be able to do in a real fight. The boxer went from a fighting position and just fired away with a cross.
Ok, so _why_ do they do it? They must know it. Even us, in KSW, have slower standard punches than boxing (Jeon Gwon vs. a jab). In theory, if you tense 'just right' you can deliver 'one inch punches', right (don't know to which extent it is feasible)? So, what do they get in exchange for being slower & softer? Precission? Pressure? Stability? Nor would we be able to set a low stance. So? And many a boxer has found that punches without gloves are... harder. I think you can safely bet that, in a fight, I'm not going to try a Jeon Gwon to anyone's face.
The school I am from teach's the strike you are talking about, but not all do it in the Katas, they perform the "weaker Fist". Very foolish not to do the one that is stronger and correct, for when the time to use it is needed it will not be there...IMHO. But the minute you put on a glove it changes the whole anotomically correct reason for doing it. Many don't get it they need to hit without gloves to have the body reinforce the bones and strength in the hands because of a slight trauma. But..do not over do it. Most are prone to do it wrong without proper trainers. IMHO.... I am in the school of "Kempo" which is the forerunner of most of the schools that profess to be the true lineage. It is the hand of Tang or the "T'ang hand". So many arts are hooked to this time frame in China yet do not realize it. We do not stop at the art of the Japanese, the person who is the GM mentions the arts of China and India. But the newer arts seem to want to make fun of that??? Donn Draeger, mentions in his "Asian Fighting Arts" book. The arts in his book are a lot of common sense and knowledge, IMHO. Many many references that are old. GAB
I better start out by saying that I am not trying to cut down any system. Each has its own positive aspects along with particular drawbacks. As for why that particular form of KF hits like it does, I can speculate that the system doesn't teach a better method. Or if it does, such other strikes are not part of the traditional curriculum, so that was not show cased on the documentary (during a san shou competition, all the competitors looked more like kick boxers). I honestly don't believe the KF practitioner acheived anything by the softer slower punch. The boxer still had better stability and pressure (as measure in psi). Further, he was able to immediately resume an attack/defense position. There didn't appear to be any differences in precision from the several second set up of KF and the immediate strike of the boxer. I will add that the boxer appeared bigger, so he had more weight behind his shots. As it stands, when it comes to hand strikes, boxing is (IMHO) much better than any other fighting system. Hand strikes are most of what you learn, so you get pretty good at it. However, don't go to a traditional boxing gym to learn kicking, joint locks, hyung/kata, etc. Again, each fighting art has its own positive and negative aspects. In my own KSW class, we spend very little time on hand strikes as there is too much else that we need to work on. Further, any heavy bag work is reserved for kicking (I don't think we have any bag gloves anyway). There are a few other very practical reasons why boxers would have better hand strikes, but I will not go into them as that's a discussion for a different thread. I would disagree partly with your comment regarding the effect of gloves as most punching training, including heavy bag work, is done without ring gloves. Further, the weight of the gloves makes punching more difficult. On the other hand, if you are used to hitting something hard with the protection/stability of gloves or hand wraps, you could be in for a nasty surprise if you strike something without them. For instance, a kick boxer I trained with came into class with a broken hand. He was in some altercation and punched the driver side window of the other guy's car. Perhaps gloves would have protected him.
Of the impact zone or of the... I'll call it 'rest' zone. I clarify: think on our punch. It's impact zone is two points in the knuckles (index & middle fingers), it's 'rest' zone would be the whole knucle area that may come in contact when punching a soft surface. By then, some force would already be spent, for starters. That's the _hard_ I was thinking on, precisely. My stories are more of a broken wrist nature, though.
In terms of when you learn these techniques perhaps, (although fingers to the eyes is taught in many a self-defense course) but in terms of using them in actual combat I would say it depends upon the situation, your opponent, the target, what's available, etc.
I would think the verticle fist would be a bit more effective when punching up the centerline of your opponent. As for the show Fight Science, the boxer was considerably larger than the gung fu practitioner. We all know the old equation of force = mass x acc. I'm not to big on practicing punches from a ki ma ja seh. I understand the conditioning aspect of performing the hand drills from that stance, but I prefer to work on footwork associated with hand strikes than staying static. As for striking in a fist fight, I'd much rather close the gap and use elbows. I've broken my hand twice and I don't think it has the anatomical stability to withstand the force of a punch that accidently landed on the top of a forehead.
You are correct about the relative sizes of the boxer versus the KF practitioner. There was a size difference, my guess was about 150 pounds to 200 pounds. This would account for a difference, but only a 33% difference in power (KF to boxing) as opposed to the 100% difference. My own take on the difference in power (taking into account the relative sizes of the participants) was that there was no particular magic/moral purity to boxing that gives it powerful punches. It was all a matter of technique. As for verticle punches, one way to determine if they are effective is to look at people who do a lot of punching--boxers. From what I know and remember, boxers do land verticle punches for particular shots. In particular, close in straight shots to the body. But this is because the arm has not had the chance to fully rotate horizontally before the strike lands. Deliberately keeping your fist verticle could have some uses. However, I find such a punch to be difficult and (for me) clumsy as my arm naturally wants to rotate through the extension. JSun, could you elaborate more on the verticle punch (advantages, ranges that work). On another note, regarding the power of a strike what is the best way to measure this? By Force (F=Mass*Acceleration) or by Energy (E=Mass*Velocity squared)?
