A question About high rank in Bujinkan

Sure, it may sound a bit elitist, but let me clarify a bit. I'm not talking about the noob that does one or 2 classes and calls it quits. I'm asking that a student stay with it a few months (would prefer a year) and then make a decision. Maybe it's because I've seen so many wannabes come and go, but I don't try anymore to get people to stick with the Bujinkan. It's not for everybody. Maybe they would be more comfortable doing BJJ or TKD or Aikido. Let 'em. I recall Sensei saying at one point that the Bujinkan has gotten big enough.
If a person really wants to train, they'll research first. They'll try different instructors or training groups. If they stay, great. If they leave, that's good too. It doesn't affect my training or my view of the art.

But, this topic is for another thread, don't you think?

Also, everyone take a few minutes and calm down. If it starts getting out of hand, I'll go back and delete all irrelevant posts. I won't lock the thread yet, I feel there's some good information to be found here. But, I won't stomache the bickering and playground shoving.

 

bencole: "Post 22: Sshh continues with the SKH stuff"

What?

Are you talking about this Post #22?

The one where I said, "It is a counting system, . . . most people in the Bujinkan I know use it this way."

Sorry I pointed out the obvious by mentioning the SKH stuff, but the real point I was making was to answer the question about why the 5 subdivisions of judan are named such.

Leave me out of your crusade, Ben. Leave everyone else out too. I think your complaints are way off base.

"Post 23: Xenmaster's pride is hurt and insists that he is not the cause of the thread going into such topics as SKH and the Godai!"

First of all, what is wrong with someone asking about a possible connection between sanshin, godai, judan ranks, and SKH philosophy - when they all contain the words, chi, sui, ka, fuu, and kuu?

Secondly, regardless of whether your concerns are valid, I still see your posts taking up screens and screens of thread space without offering much to the discussion.



Whatever.


I respect you as an author and an artist, but puhleeze.

 

Asking is a valid thing to do. But xenmaster did way more than ask if there was a connection. In his first post he said,

That is a bit more than asking if maybe there was a connection. The term "surely" seems to indicate that it is a fact. And when told that he was wrong, he got a little defensive about it.

But now it is clear to anyone with an open mind that Steve came up with his godai theory due to his lack of knowledge of ninjutsu at the time and it is not used in any way in Japan. The use of the elements in both the san shin and the new ranks is merely a counting system and do not relate to any sort of feeling or philosophy.

 

Hang on a second, this is really starting to get heated.

There have been far too many good threads ending the same way.

I like a good discussion the same as anyone but if we were all training together would we act/answer the same way.

everyone has their thoughts, their way of doing things and saying things but lets accept all our different 'ways'.

The answer has been stated 10 grades the last split into five.

my work here is done!

 

Nothing, in my opinion. I'm surprised somebody so "high up in the Bujinkan" can demonstrate such a lack of patience for people who ask QUESTIONS and offer OPINION!!!

 

Ok Ben now look at it from a different perspective of Bouk Teef's and Xen's and lets get the opinion of the route to Black belt within the BBD.

Obviously Hatsumi can keep grading as he likes as he is Soke, fair enough, but what if grading is restricted like it is in the BBD? Brian is an 8th Dan, not a master or soke of an art, now under him what is the highest grade there is? Where is the information coming from to excel in the art?

Do you think Brian restricts the time that it takes people to grade because he lacks any further direction and has nowhere to go? When i started all those years ago and it was the EBNS the grading was similar to what the Bujinkan is now, it was only when Brian split that it took extra time to grade, do you think Brian is holding you back?

Sorry guys just turning the grading thing into another perspective!!

 

greg,

fair question,

in short, from personal experience, i don't know of anyone being held back at kyu grade level and i'd be surprised if it was the case at dan-level, Bouk or Ka7ana are better placed to address that point.

on a local dojo level, each dojo can award kyu grades up to a certain level, beyond that, all grades are carried out by Brian at national courses. In my case, my instructors ask when i want to be put forward and offer advice, guidance etc to help me get up to the required standard. In fact, it is me holding myself back. I have been asked if i want to grade and often declined for six months...but that is often related to how my training is progressing in relation to my back condition, i also think that time spent at each grade is valuable, each level has its own lessons, rush them and i believe you end up missing out on the journey.

my problem with a non-consistent rank system is to do with competance at a practical level.

MA's are self-regulatory in a the main. If i walk into a weapons class with live blades and the instructor is 9th kyu i would be concerned. If i walked in and the instructor was 9th dan i'd feel comfortable. Why?

Because the grade transmits the message..."This guy knows what he is doing"

Yet, from discussions like these, the impression is given is that, as a general rule, you can't make that assumption because the grades don't correlate directly with technical
skill.

you see where i'm coming from?

 

Can someone clear something up for me please?

I was in the BBD back in '94 and Brian was a 7th Dan. Had the split already taken place then? When did he get his 8th Dan?

Excluding Brian what’s the highest rank in the BBD anyone has gained?
Are there any 7th Dans yet?

 

spooky,

the split was '93, as far as i'm aware he was 8th dan then (i'm pretty sure of this 'cos my old Bujinkan instructor talked in length about the situation when i joined the BBD back in 1996 and he was the same grade as Brian and he refered to Brian as 8th dan during that conversation)

 

Cheers I was sure he was 7th cuz I remeber finding out he was 8th a couple of years back when I was looking to get into it again.

Oh well my bad cheers

 

I don't think Brian restricts grading in the BBD. I can only speak for our dojo but it is up to us to put people forward to grade once they reach a certain level. We grade our students up to 4th kyu then its done by Brian. However once they are going for 3rd kyu upto Shodan it is still up to us to put them forward. So Brian in no way holds back peoples gradings.

I was around in the days of the EBNS as well and I suppose it was different then. I have no problem with the way we grade now.

Its me that pushes myself to excel in the art. I'm still seeing new and fresh training at courses with Brian.

 

Again, fair questions Greg.

Xen has gone some way to answering them and raising other points for discussion.

Grading structures obviously vary from organisation to organisation. A BInt 5th Kyu, for example, could be better or worse then a Genbukan 5th Kyu. Each are subject to different grading systems. It wouldn't be fair or constructive to compare them through grades alone.

We can assume the points raised through out the discussion apply regardless of grading "standard" or organisation.

I would assume Brian cannot grade higher than his own grade. I don't see that being a problem at all.

Again, it becomes a fruitless task comparing grade progress as we are subject to a different grading structure.

If it is the case that, in the BBD, we will never get 9th Dans or 10th Dans or 20th Dans I really don't see anyone being that bothered about it!

To answer your questions though: no, Brian does not restrict. The train journey is the same but with less stations on the track . No, Brian is not holding anyone back. Just like most organisations, the focus of the training does not lie in running up a grading ladder.

It takes as long as it takes to go up the grades. Beleive me, by the time you start hitting 4th Kyu it is an exercise in itself trying to avoid them; and as for the Dan grades.....!!!!

All my opinion of course. Hope that has gone some way to answering your questions.

To continue the discussion and topic,

Is it true that a BB in America has set up a group within the BInt that produces a standardised syllabus for grading and that they are wanting, to use Xen's quote, regulation within the grading structure?

If that is the case, doesn't it go against Hatsumi's grading ethos?

 

No, any teacher in the Bujinkan Dojo is free to set up whatever grading system they want up to 4th dan. Some people have strict tests and grading levels, some don't. Sensei has never mentioned anything that I have read or heard about grading, other than to say it's up to each teacher to make sure they do it responsibly. He leaves it up to each dojo to decide.

By the way, what is "the BInt"? Do you mean the Bujinkan Dojo? There is no such thing as the Bujinkan International . . .

 

So what happens when someone comes to the same level as Brian or better, why after all this time has there been no one, it only took Brian about 15 years to get his 8th, there are people around in the BBD who have been there longer than that now so why are they not at that level? restriction maybe?

Shawn is just testing people in case they feel they are not upto their grade, goods idea really and as far as i know Hatsumi is happy with it.

 

I think you are on about Sean Askew and the BKR see the following thread:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32645

 

Its what the BBD say to differenciate themselve from us, but yes your right!!

 

Er I don't understand....why?

we are Bujinkan they are BBD

 

I gathered that was the reason. I suppose I think it's still strange in this day and age to hear BBD people attempt to argue that they are still in the Bujinkan. I'm not sure why they would want to be really, seeing as there are obviously cultural differences. I have no problem with them or what they do. I trained in the BBD for a couple of year when I started and look back on the experience fondly. Today however it seems a little irrelevant, but I would not criticise someone's right to train in that way.

What has this to do with the question of ranking? Possibly not much, so sorry, I seem to be guilty of thread derailment.

 

or you could ask what happens when the 9th dans in your organisation get close to the level of Hatsumi...suddenly 5 new divisions of judan appear!!!

the problem is exactly the same...how does the highest rank within an organisation respond when his long-time students approach his level of skill?...which will happen in any organisation.

Hatsumi created extra ranks for a reason...perhaps that is the reason why, perhaps not, only he will ever know for sure.

but i do understand where you are coming from with that line of thought greg.

perhaps when i get to seventh-dan i can tell you what happens next, but i'd keep yourself busy for the next couple of decades while you wait for me to get there

 

Not true Greg. It is the name I use.

Sorry, I was under the impression that the name of the group is "Bujinkan International" and that, for convience, it is commonly shortened to Bujinkan.

If thats not the case then I am happy to be corrected .

To be fair though, type in "Bujinkan International" into Google and look what comes up. I don't want to drift off topic so just PM me with the answer but when did Hatsumi change the name?

Re, Spooky: thanks for the link.

I think the answer is in my last post Greg. I also agree with Xen, if I get there I'll tell you about it.

re Cuchulain: When has anyone on this forum from the BBD argued that they are still in the Buj?