A hypothetical!

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Rebo Paing, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Thank you everyone!

    Steve Perry said : "When you come to a martials arts group and say that talking in this situation would be better than fighting, you are preaching to the choir. And being disingenuous -- you could ask any passerby on the street the same question and likely get the same answer."

    Steve Perry, doesn't disingenuous mean to speak an untruth .. or to lie? That is not what I mean at all Steve! Also nothing implied originally ... I am genuinely interested in what people here have to say about that particular situation.
    However, thank you for making me realise that I have a long way to go before I can call myself an effective communicator! :D
    I still have so much to learn and you are a good teacher!

    Gajah Silat, very insightful! No wonder if you were a bikie once! :D Every observation you make is spot on.

    Mas Tristan I humbly submit that your wisdom and experience shine through, your appreciation of the problem is absolutely more than I could hope ... matur sembah nuwun, I'm young in experience compared to you! :)

    In the spirit of Ramadhan, may blessings be upon all humanity, if I have caused any pain to anyone, I humbly beg your forgiveness.

  2. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Mas Krisno, sama-sama/likewise brother! Thank you!

    I was just reminding people the seriousness of fighting. To assume that once you have studied martial arts suddenly you becomes the master of everything is a false assumptions. But yet you hear this over and over, suddenly they becomes the philoshoper, lawyer, doctor specialist in bones density, weapons specialist and war general. The truth is that, the majority of the people who are a very defensive about their arts are the person who never fought on the street, let alone in a live and death situation.

    I'm involved in this list, because I'm concern about the BS in Martial arts. As I had told anyone, there is no big deal in learning martial arts. Everybody can fight in an ideal and safe situations and everybody have the same opportunity to learn. What makes the difference is can you apply it in NOT ideal or safe situation. To assume you can...that what makes my BS bell ringing. :)

    In a NOT ideal/safe situations, all we can do is to hope for the best. The old saying, "If you never been in Indian country, you ain't ****!" Therefore, practice and practice until that day is come.

    As a veteram, I can tell you this MA experience is not a biggie. In this modern warfare, martial arts knowledge are not the most important thing to accomplish the mission, as a matter of fact is the least of the requirements.
    Why I bringing this up, because war is like fighting in civies live, just in smaller scales. All the preps, strategies are the same.

    The art of killing and the tools in the modren military are most effective in warfare than the traditional martial arts arsenal. That's the fact Jack!
    But again, I could be wrong too...as usual :)
    My worthless opinon,
  3. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Truth be Told

    Krisno --

    Nah, it doesn't mean untrue, per se; in this context, it means to offer something about which you know more than you let on. That you might have an agenda not directly reflected in the question.

    I read your post as a standard what-what-you-do-if-this-happened? scenario, and most of the responses you got were what I expected -- talk your way out of it, de-escalate the situation as best you can, etc.

    But by ramping it up to sixteen drunken bikers against four bouncers (three of whom aren't martial artists), you made the situation more dire, and you didn't answer the important question that was implicit in the set-up.

    None of the outlaw bikers I've known would stand by and let one of their own get his butt kicked. One on all, all on one is their philosophy, and if you are pounding the snot out of their buddy, you better be watching your back. And your sides and your front ...

    Yeah sure, talk fast and calm the guy down, sixteen-against-four, anything else would be iffy in the extreme. That's a given. I kow that, you know it, so .. why bring it up?

    But if you are going to what-if? then you need more than one solution to a potentially-lethal situation. Talk fails, the biker takes a swing, and the crowd goes bananas.

    Then what do you do?

    You run, you produce superior weapons, or you hope your kung fu (or silat) is really, really good. And with three tough but untrained buddies backing you up, I wonder if your comments about the martial art mindset might not change.

    If push comes to shove, who would you rather having back you up?

    Me, I'd want three guys so deep in the art they could knock bikers down with one hand while holding a cup of hot coffee in the other hand without spilling it. Hard to find such experts, but you take what you can get.

    The four of us might be able to cut a path and boogie, and if we couldn't, maybe we might cause enough damage to make the bikers think we were more trouble than we were worth. At that point, it's what you have to work with.

    Our version of silat starts with the idea that you will be facing larger, stronger, armed, multiple opponents. Yeah, talk it down if you can, run if you can't, but if you can't talk and can't run, then what do you do? And since that scenario is much more common than a herd of drunken bikers against professional bouncers, I'd rather have an answer than not.

    Run is good. But what if you are walking with your feeble old granny, or your two-year-old and five-year-old grandsons? You gonna scamper off and leave them behind? That'll make for a great family dinner next time, eh?

    I know a "streetfighting expert" who says you always run, but he doesn't have any children, and apparently all his relatives can run like FloJo out of the blocks ...)
  4. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    If you can't talk, can't run and can't prevail then take heart. The beer is cold in Valhalla and the All Father loves the bravery of all who die in battle. What do you want from life, guarantees?
  5. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Hi Steve,
    yes that is right ... but I was hoping for detail and why one would take a specific course of action. What cues might be important? Saying that a person will "talk fast" misses the point. Talking fast might actually indicate that the bouncer is panicking ... and while that's possibly true, it's not a good thing to project :D !

    I mis-communicated, I always muddle it when talking about ratios. 4 of them to 1 of us ... I didn't ramp it up knowingly, sorry :).

    BTW, when I was in Recon, there were only 2 of us who did traditional MA. Myself and my sniper partner (who incidently was Golden Gloves full contact champion for his weight div. in Queensland in the early 80's). However I'd bet my old unit against any group of traditinal MA-ist. OK .. so I'm biased ;) ... but the point is that focused undiluted aggression (IMO) coupled with adaptive method will beat most of what I see that passes for MA technique every time. It's always the person ... never the MA (which is just the tool), and our objective (when we weren't doing sneak and peak) was to kill the enemy ... period.

    Having said that, it wasn't the death or glory scenarion that I was trying to convey with the hypothetical! Real life is interesting because it's real ... and even when we cover every eventuality in a hypothetical ... real life can still bite us in the butt! Which is what I think you are saying ... and how true!

    Hehe ... only exists in the movies! The real value of MA is to exercise the body and keep it healthy into help old age!

    Todd :D ... my wife is Danish you know ... :D
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2006
  6. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Biker group as not as bad as many people thought. Many moons ago, I was a bouncer at the Mawell nightclub, where the Pagans Bikers hang-out. In this group just like any other group people, the trouble maker is usually the mediocre kind of people with a big mouth. We called this type of people "the starter/the brush fire". The one you should be concern is the one who are very quite and reserve.

    How we contain the starter? To be friend with the quite one, you can spot the leader of the gang from a far. Ask him for help. Usually they will cooperate with you, especially if they are the "regular."

    In the situation you describe Mas Krisno, that was a very extreme. It would be difficult to enforce your private law if their gathering is outside of your building. If you are out number and you are not having a gun and willing to shoot. Don't be a Bruce Lee, you will be dead!:) A dead hero is not what you want to be.

    Just like in Recon, escape and evasion is not coward thing to do, its just a part of recon trooper strategy. Regroup, secure your perimeter until the reinforcement arrive is the prudent thing to do.

    In your situation, I would not hesitate to call a police, watching them from afar. Do nothing, unless your safety is in jeopardy.

    Forget about silat or martial arts, It really does not work against large group of bikers that I know. The bikers group that I knew "the Pagans", they don't forget, and they love revenges. Do not disrespect their color (vest).
    Well, most all of their leaders is now in Jail for murders, drug, sexual offenses. The Pagans is no longer exists, if they do, it would be underground.

    Remember, silat or martial arts is only a tool. Use it where it fit and wisely.
    Go for broke while you pocket is full, is foolish and the very least is dumbest things to do!
    And I could be wrong too,
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2006

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