But *YOU* already did this, when you spoke about "trying that against a UFC guy" and "the Bujinkan world." Please show me yourself IN THE WORLD THAT IS NOT THE BUJINKAN. Evidently, this is the "world" that supposedly "UFC guys" live. Please show me YOU in this world. You have been given help, but then you state that the help was meaningless.... You need to show us what this "other world" is.... You watch Dale and say it won't work against another world. Show me what the "other world" is.... I'm a skeptic, too. What did Sveneric or Brin or Arnaud say when you asked these questions to them? Have you asked these men to show you "how it works in this other world"? Honestly. Or have you let those opportunities pass and came searching for answers (?) on an internet board? If Sveneric, Brin or Arnaud provided you with an opinion, what was it? Did you believe it as a skeptic? -ben
Agree completely. I get the impression that those demanding evidence of the Art's effectiveness will only be happy with if Dale (for example) was to strap on some gloves and roll about in a ring with a UFC champion for 3x5 min rounds! I think it is unfair to judge an Art based on one 30 sec video of people laughing, joking and having fun in a dojo. If people really want evidence (on both sides) then go and train with the people take it from there. The internet isn't the place to do it imo. There seems to be a lot of “what if” type questions being thrown about at the moment. "What if" questions are completely pointless. "What if" the guy was a really good UFC fighter / had a huge knife? What would you do if you were jumped....etc... The answer I give, which some people have trouble with, to these questions and the like is: I don't know! I don't know how I will react / move to a punch until it's delivered. I don't know how I will react / move until I do move. The moment you apply a set movement to a situation or try and predict the outcome of a conflict you have immediately restricted yourself and put yourself in trouble. I might survive a fight. On the other hand, I might not. How do you know until it happens? Or alternatively, why worry about it? As you are describing it, no, you would be a fool to take an Ichimonji "stance". The way I see it the reason why deep stances are used during practice is that, in order to initially learn to move effectively, you need to exaggerate what you are doing. In other words, you need to move further in order to accomplish anything. Movement isn't a concept that can be grasped overnight and takes time to develop. As somebody becomes more experienced they may not take such deep stances so they will move less (in terms of physical distance) but their movement is more refined and effective because they understand how they should move. Don't forget that these stances are not stances as such. They are only moments in movement. Think of them as frames from a film. The film is seamless to the eye (as should be the movement) but is made up of individual pictures. I believe you are thinking of them as static / rigid entities. One of the best "ichimonji's" I have even seen was a bloke catching a cricket ball! Of course he didn't sit in it and admire his "deep" stance. But, like I said, if I had a camera and taken a picture I could have shown it round the dojo! I hope that answers your questions.
Thanks a lot. I have same understaning of the physical ascpect of kamae. I couldn't say it better. As I already said (but really had to thank a man) Farewell!
How many time have you entered in a fight for your life where the other person has been out and out wanting to kill you? I bet its 0.
And if you need to ask that question about a basic form then maybe bujinkan is not for you maybe you need to do kickboxing!!!
How many have you? jsut because you have been in the ring does not mean its a fight for life or are you on about door work where there is another 5 meatheads there to help you out?
Um... Did you teleport into that position? Well its a competition and the whole fight was about 15 seconds so the whole of it is we lock up, I turn him and drive him to the edge of the matt, as he wants to stay on the matt he cant go back so makes my throw easier. There is no more to it than that. It was done with a fully resisting opponent who I did not know. Good You have not read my posts - also on Bullshido I have defended the art for being not as bas as it is made out. I do know what is practical in the style and said so a few posts back. Saying its throwing techniques are good as is its weapon work. I am a realist and do not subscribe to the crap I am told just because someone is a xxxx dan in there art. Some things are obviously practical some are not. just perhaps too much a realist. I never did No disrespect but people have there own wars to fight just not all are on the battle field or in the armed services. I am sure what Dale did and does is very valuable but it is no different than other battles faught in different ways. What you want to do is stop being such a hippocrite when you say you want to see them removed and you wont put yourself up for examination. That is just behaving like a pratt. There is some brief comp fottage on the forum which was here before you asked and I am working on some others to show to people who have requested to see some footage of me training. When its done you will get it. You will look a complete idiot if your requesting it then not doing the same - shows little bottle in my book. -ben[/QUOTE]
Never said I have but I have been attacked with a knife on 2 occassions and have the scars to show - with luck and a solid cross I am still alive and a little smarter. The first time was 1 on 1 2nd time was 3 on 1 (one of them had a knife) now I will be honest and say these instances were not life and death situations the knife was to intimidate me into just taking my kicking. Neither times it worked.
[/QUOTE] But Ben is not trying to blow holes in your art is he? he is asking you to put up or shut up!!
i made that comment to highlight the fact that each art does different things, focusses on different areas and develops different skills AND ALSO to point out that ninjutsu practitioners seldom go round slagging off everybody elses systems and demanding bitch matches or inventing hypothetical scenarios which 'are supposed to represent reality'. **the rest of this post is not aimed at the person I quoted above** Yet we have to suffer people slagging off what we do, how we do it and telling us that the art we practice is this or it is that. I've shown the clip dale posted to a few people, some train, some don't. Not one of them has had the conceit, arrogance or ignorance to say that what they were watching was this or that. But everyone of them was stunned by how effortlessly and fluidly Dale was moving. If you want to see ninjutsu, then look at that clip again. Ninjustu isn't about being the hardest, the fastest, the best or the winner. People who stick at this art are usually bored with competetive ego crap that we are conditioned into engaging in. In short, I choose ninjustu because after being practically crippled I wanted a way to defend myself and get my body back to some sort of useful state. When I got out the hospital bed on crutches, I was terrified. If someone started on me and I went down wrong, I would probably have not been able to get up again...ever. I won't live my life like that. If someone jumps me with a knife, and i have no other option and i get the chance that knife is going into their throat, period. I don't train to fight, i don't want to fight. Why? Simple, I enjoy it too much and that (in my book) is not the right way to live. I'll get in the ring with an MMA guy...and he'd kick my sorry ass all over the room. Big deal. But i'd still get in the ring, because i simply don't care if i am perceived to have 'won' the fight or not, i care about spinning these bonus days i've been granted out for as long as I can. My battle was over nearly 12 years ago when my surgeon got me out of bed after waiting for 9weeks staring at ceiling wondering if my legs were going to work again, i'm still alive and i can still walk. Ninjutsu is the sort of art you turn to when your up the creek and the paddle is floating away. The techniques aren't for showing off with in a ring, they are for saving your life or those under your protection. If you want to be competitive fighter..great, do it, love it and be the best you can. But don't start imposing your skewed view of what reality is, what makes a good fighter, etc etc on those of us WHO HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO BE COMPETETIVE FIGHTERS. And don't start picking holes in a 30 second video you haven't got the sensitivity or experience to understand, take your crappy attitudes back to the playground where they belong. Dale posted that clip in the spirit of fun. Dale doesn't challenge people, slag off other systems or run people down. Martial arts begins and ends with respect. Respect for those around you and respect for yourself. Considering this is supposed to be a web-site for MA's the lack of respect for other peoples views, systems, lifestyles etc is making me sick.
I think that counts for a lot of us on here, i dont think i (yes me!!) has never turned round and said kickboxings crap, kung fu is pant etc simply because their art does not interest me so i do not get get involved with them, simple as that!!
Realism So you basically walk up to each other and grab each other's collar/sleeve, huh? That's really realistic. So when someone who is realistically trying to grab you to do you *HARM*, why don't you punch him in the face, grab his hair, or bite his arm? You felt confident enough to take him mano-y-mano, huh? Just grab his collar and let him grab your collar.... Cool. Why is that? Because he would be thrown off a cliff if he stepped over the edge? Do you honestly think that if you were fighting against someone who HONESTLY wanted to hurt you, and you moved him toward an edge like that, that he wouldn't just jump on you like a vampire? Both of you would have soiled your undergarments and been clawing at each other's faces.... You just don't get it..... What you are doing in that video is NOT REALISTIC. It doesn't even pretend to be realistic. It's two people playing by certain rules. So much so that you are unwilling to backpedal for 30 seconds to get better timing because you would be cited by the referee for refusing to engage. So much so that your opponent is willing to unbalance himself in order to stay inside an imaginary box. Then please show me something "real." What you showed me was in a canned world, Sonshu. The same canned world that Dale was dancing in. This is precisely why "sparring" can never replicate reality. It doesn't even come close. Even if your partner says to himself, "I'm going to take this guy's head off!" deep in his heart, he doesn't REALLY want to hurt you. There is no true malice here. That lack of malice is endemic of ALL sparring. In the end, you want to shake hands and go out for a beer. You don't want to be visiting your friend in the quadraplegic hospital. When I read comments such as "Get in a ring with a UFC fighter and let's see what happens" my immediate thought is "Get in a room strewn with weapons with a UFC fighter and let's see what happens." Then the detractor will say, "That's not realistic. You're never going to be in a room full of weapons." I say, "Fine. Get in a room full of everyday objects, such as my living room or a bar, and let's see what happens." That's MUCH more realistic than any ring. A UFC guy would ignore all the tools at his disposal. A Bujinkaner would know in an instant how to hog-tie the guy with a curtain, use the dirt from the plant as metsubushi, or slit the guy's throat with a CD case. Now, THAT is realistic. Why don't MMAers clamor for those types of matches? Probably because they are not comfortable in such environments. There are no rules that will ensure that they will prosper. They know that the opponent will not be able to evade beyond 15 feet. They know that their opponent does not have his Spiderco knife in the ready. In other words, these people want to play on their playground--and its a tilted playground at that!!! I am not asking you for videotape of you "training." I want to see you being attacked by a fully resisting opponent who is intending to hurt you. You haven't shown me this. You've shown me a man so afraid of a blue/white dividing line that he is willing to unbalance himself and get his arm dislocated. Put yourself on a cliff with that same guy and I guarantee the results will be VASTLY different. You've shown me a man who is so certain that his opponent doesn't have a knife hidden that he is willing to just walk up and "clinch" with an "unknown opponent." That's not realistic. Try that will Dale's wife, Sonshu. She'll carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey before you could drop your weight. You've shown a canned world. Show me something realistic, Sonshu. -ben
any more clips? just wondering if there were any more clips we could view dale? your movement was very smooth and impressive imho. i also liked the way you covered other potential strikes by juan and other subtle little things probably missed by the experts here who know about 'real fighting' it would be interesting for you to redo the clip in a few years to see how differently you move. excellent considering you were basically working with a straight jacket on.
Sorry Sonshu Mr. Cole is right Take any one with more than TKD training and throw weapons in the mix. Yes he may hit me hard. But if I am getting my but kicked. I am going to pick something up. That is the real world. NOT PRIDE, NOT UFC. And the truth is the mma world needs to wake up. In the real world you are not going to have some one pull your butt out of the fire when you look dazed and confused. I know I was a marine and have been to places where you wish they were just kicking your a-- (sorry mods) Fighting in the ring is one thing. Fighting for your life is a completely different thing.
I don't do MMA nor do I particularly enjoy pride or UFC but still I think you may be the one that needs to wake up if you think that people practicing MMA are unaware of the difference between a ring and a street. Having read this whole thread just now I would make a few comments firstly I don't think Dale needs people to fight his battles for him and since its obvious he's not been exactly crushed by the criticism (especially the silly criticism) some random people on the forum have posted I don't see why others are getting so hot under the collar. Follow his example. Secondly, people who compare everything to the UFC are deluded but they are just as deluded as people who can't understand how training hard for a competitive sporting enviroment could make you very capable of defending yourself in a non-sporting environment. Now about the video: I've never seen any ninjitsu stuff before so Im commenting from an entirely uneducated position so please don't take my comments too seriously. I found it very impressive how Dale 'controlled his space' or however he put it and the atmosphere of the demonstration seemed to highlight to me that this was just a light hearted, fun demonstration where the teacher clearly outclassed the student (seems like an enjoyable class from this clip). Despite this I did find that the student telegraphed his movements (and if I can notice this it means they are noticeably telegraphed ), seemed to throw his initial attacks in an over extended and exagerrated way and was rather compliant in being taken down. HOWEVER since I wasnt this guy I cant really tell how compliant he was being it may have been he was simply going with the flow because he had to or because he knew he wasnt getting out of the situation and even when someone telegraphs its not easy to react in the proper way so still clearly shows Dale outclasses the guy. Thats the impressions I got and thanks Dale for posting the clip.
