Yes, projecting yourself back into Tori, that will feed their counter, you are moving directly into their motion, essentially making it much more effortless on their part to take you down. Uke is not giving a little tug in this instance, nor are they static. Uke is placing you on your butt or on your back, and they are not (or don't have to be) using any aikido or technique at all. Best to avoid this altogether by being cognizant of where your hands are, not letting them get above or behind your forehead...you should be able to see your hands up there in front of your forehead. Also spiraling downward with ukes force at this point, using awase and going with that flow should one not have their hands in proper position is a better approach than projecting back with some form of counter force. Additionally, by spiraling down, you now place yourself in a position to actually have your uke, who is trying to throw you down backwards at least in your periphery field of view, and not continuing with your back towards uke...also minimizing the chance you get seated on your butt, back facing uke, and then be in position to get choked, or not see where the blows are comming from next. Spiral down, twist to face uke, weight drop into seiza and continue from there. You shouldn't have too much difficulty from seiza given the style you practice, and judging from the swari waza on your exam. In anycase, I am glad that you felt the need, embra, to elaborate further on a pointer that I gave to aikidojomofo. It shows, now, at this juncture, finally, after much drivel and trolling by many senior members here on this forum, that this was obviously worth mentioning a first time by me, who introduced it into this thread, and important enough to come back to and highlight again.
I don't know Izu. I was the first to post feedback in the thread and even so I was not sure how to go about it. 2nd Kyu is pretty high up, it isn't black belt yet, but it does represent a great progression towards black belt. I definitely believe Leo did well and was very brave to post online. What many posters mentioned was Leo's structure and how good it was. I saw this too and agree. Good structure and maintaining that structure later under pressure in randori and two person weapon drills takes a lot of practice and good training. It is very nice to see when Leo demonstrated good flow in movement and good structure in just the brief few minutes, in just the glimpse of his training paying off shown in the video. I was not sure how to post feedback to Leo simply because I did not want give him "reader overload" with so much feedback, good and bad, that it all just runs on and none of it is really meaningful. So I think, although I can't speak exactly for sakumeikan, but his and my feedback may have seemed critical but I believe it was more about universal concepts. My feedback about situational awareness was not a criticism of technique at all. A saw Leo pin successfully with good technique and then after tap just drop uke's arm and move on. You should not do this in any martial art because then it becomes habit and in real world you can do the same. How that is addressed in any school of martial arts is not for me to dictate but what you do after pinning uke MUST be addressed for it to be a form of budo. I also thought Leo was hit during the test, but he clarified he was not. Look, it does not matter if you are hit as long as there is no permanent damage. Everyone can get hit. What my concern was is that it did not seem as though Leo was in the mindset that the attack could kill him, such as if it was a tanto instead of a bare hand. Always assume the enemy could have a weapon. Remembering the principle of "minimum movement and maximum mobility." It takes a mindset to wait until the last possible moment to move and counter. I saw this as an area both tori and uke could improve on. Sakumeikan may have critiqued the way a technique was performed, but I saw it as more about principles. I believe Sakumeikan was telling Leo to always keep uke on front of him and not let him get behind. Anyway, can't speak for Sakumeikan. That's just how I perceived his comments. I don't see any of this intending to pulling technique apart.
@rebel sure, I agree, excellent form, and I did congradulate him on a double promotion. I did not comment on the obvious, but felt it significant to add my posts that in no way detract from the quality of his exam. Shame on any of you for thinking this was or could have been the case, and taking a stance to make that a reality. I merely looked a little closer at his exam the second time around and noticed a couple items that others did not mention. Hope this clears up your "I don't know." these pointers are minor details I felt worth mentioning, did not detract from the quality of the exam, and I never said anything negative about aikidojomofo or his exam (inspite of the comments he has made about me from time to time). Nor are these (any of our critiques or pointers) in any way indicative of a failed performance. That is not anyones call here on MAP. Nor is it my position to pass such judgement. Feedback, small pointers, things I, or anyone else here have picked up on are just that. How and why others would blow that way out of porportion is beyond me.
This was one of my posts. In no way is this a comment on the overall quality of this exam. Also I mentioned in a previous post that there was an instance in which I did not see him move off line. Again in no way is this a comment on skill, ability or quality of the exam, the obvious hours put into practice or a generalized statement on yoshinkan. In fact it is no different from any of the other pointers and suggestions given by anyone else who has done so on this thread.
Sometimes it helps to just try to put yourself in the shoes of the other person. I was taught and still teach to chamber punches in karate. I also teach to NEVER let your elbows go behind your hips. obviously the practice of chambering punches and the rule of always keeping elbows in front the hips cannot exist at the same time. However, to every rule there are exceptions. Some of the suggestions may have gone against how Leo was taught to do things. This can be very difficult to deal with. A suggestion about not allowing your hands to go behind your head is a good one, but if all the forms learned by Leo allow the hands to go hehind the head, then how does the suggestion help Leo in any way? It doesn't help him today, but Izu, your suggestions might help Leo in a year from now. For example, I remember some Kaju training where a technique involved a knee to the solar plexus of the opponent, a grandmaster told me that kneeing to the face would be more effective, especially if the enemy was very big and tough. Of course this went against the way the technique was taught to me. Was the grandmaster really telling me to change the technique because the original method was not as good? Well it sure seemed like that to me... but as it turns out, no. A little bit of experience and research revealed just how devastating a good knee to the face is. I had to realize that it was not the technique but the target of opportunity that the grandmaster was talking about. There are a lot of targets in training that we use that are safer and the way we do techniques is so that they are safer to practice. A lot of the generic movements are because they are safer. Certain ways of training are done so because they focus on structure and safety. Less variables and more isolation of movements. Students don't know what is just for safety and what is the real application because students just copy what others do. It is like telling a student to keep good posture at all times, then later they find out to really unbalance the enemy, you have to unbalance yourself. But this is hard for a student to see, it can only be felt as uke because it happens in an instant, not long enough for a counter. So years of training is in keeping good structure and posture. Only by being uke is the rest realized, IMHO.
@Aikidojomofo Leo, the above was just an example. I was not really saying that you were taught to allow the hands to go behind the head. I was saying that the value of any advice sometimes is not realized immediately, that's all.
@rebel Sure, sometimes when adjusents are made, they can take perhaps even longer than a year to work in effectively. I'm not in any rush, I can wait, and if it never happens, or isn't important enough of an issue where he trains then so be it. I was just offering my observations. What he or anyone else does with them is entirely up to them, and not in my control. I also know it was good advice, that is why I decided to offer it. Perhaps it is something that is mentioned at this dojo, perhaps not emphasized. I consider it incorrect, but then again I did not train him nor did I administer the test. I simply stated so, and then later in a reply to embra expounded upon what I felt proper should one be caught in a similar situation. Take it or leave it...a day, a month, one year, or ten...makes no difference to me. Just another detail to consider, or not, and not one mentioned in any book. If after a year another exam is posted, I guess we will know, huh? Also, nice to see you concur that this is good advice, despite your rational on what type and aproach is undertaken to training.
Or...I could just clear it all up right now Yes, Izu, you were bang on. My hands were too far back. It was something I had been told just three days previously by my sensei. In the heat of the moment, in the middle of the test, I messed it up. I knew it as soon as I had done it, but thankfully Uke was still applying some forward pressure. So after the inside turn I tried to get the accompanying hip turn sorted asap so the mistake wouldn't cost me. Lucky I found myself in an alright postion, maintained my form, popped his shoulder over and managed to carry on with the ikkajo I've replayed that moment a lot and I'm all too aware of my need not to raise my gargantuan arms so far into the cosmos Honestly, Izu, it was a correct observation. So shall we all just leave it at that for the time being? Lets carry on with the thread where anyone who has an opinion or question about the grading, myself, my teachers, Yoshinkan, different styles or Aikido in general can be heard without the needless derailment that has cost so many threads in recent weeks? How does that sound? Anyway, moving on.... I would genuinely like to continue the conversation in the direction of Ushiro Waza as I am quite unaware of the differences that are within other styles? What stands out from the Yoshinkan way that has people scratching their heads?
Is this the sequence of movements that you are referring to as Ushiro Waza? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1dj_ywV3K4"]YouTube - [AIKIDO.VN] Shumatsu Dosa II‏[/ame]
The thing that stands out to me about the Yoshinkan system is that it follows a very standardized path. Although I have not got a glue about the politics with the style, there does not seen to be as many breakaway groups as in other styles. I personally think that a structured system is an good way to introduce student to Aikido, Yoshinkan are masters of this with their various hombu training programs. On the subject of the solo exercises Tomiki Aikido has Unsuko and Tandoku Undo. These were developed by Kenji Tomiki when he was a in prison in Siberia after WW2. The Tomiki system follows the same structure as Judo with various Kata developed by both Kenji Tomiki & Hideo Ohba. Many of the koryu no kata relate to some of the older forms from prewar Aikibudo. Although Tomiki Aikido has moved in various directions, most associations use the koryu dai san within their dan syllabus.
That's actually from our Kihon Dosa (basic movements) sort of like a Kata for Yoshinkan Aikido. If you have questions about it go ahead! The Ushiro Waza stuff is where Uke grabs from behind
I think I am confused. The only place I saw you being grabbed from behind in your testing video was at around 1:07 mark and it looked to me that you used the same basic movements as from Kihon Dosa. Is my observation correct? ------------- So I found this Yoshinkan video with Ushiro Waza from about 1:06 to 1:48. I don't see the Ushiro as being much different from other schools of Aikido. There may be slight angle of entry differences, but that could just be adjustments based on how uke is attacking. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8wR94-LyRQ"]YouTube - Sensei Jon Marshall Aikido Yoshinkan Demonstration, 2002‏[/ame]
I would say that all styles of follow that same basic principles. I would say that the main difference is how the various styles are structured. The style I practice has techniques grouped into various kata. This structured format gets the students moving fairly quickly with their Aikido. The clip that follows is some of the sections of the Koryu Dai San kata, this kata has a total of 50 techniques featuring Suawari Waza, Tachi Waza, Tanto Dori, Tachi Dori, Jo Dori. Jo No Tsuki, Tachi Tai Tachi. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuo1RLbZA74&feature=related"]YouTube - ***x202a;Tomiki Aikido Koryu No Kata (Koryu Dai San Kata) Essex Aikido Dojo (Shoshinkan)***x202c;‏[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs7qiYsi9xo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL"]YouTube - Tomiki Aikido (Koryu Dai San Jo No Tsukai & Tachi tai Tachi) Essex Aikido Dojo (Shoshinkan)‏[/ame]
Hey, I'm not seeing a link to the videos, what am I missing? I have limited computer capability so it may be a tech issue on my end...regardless, just wondering. Anyway, congrats and I hope you had a good time!
MAP is having some issue and seems to have lost a lot of video links. Here it is for you Cheers! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beug6DpYc0Y&feature=youtu.be"]Yoshinkan London - Grading May 2011 - YouTube[/ame]
Yes the Saz fairy was forced to do some maintenance. Fixing one problem sometimes causes another. But at least my PMs are working again.
