20 years to complete Wing Tsun?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by diamond_geezer, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. diamond_geezer

    diamond_geezer New Member

    It takes over 20+ years to complete the Wing Tsun system, check this out:

    Wing Tsun starts off with 12 Student Levels:

    These 12 Student Levels cover Sui Nim Tao and Chum Kiu. It takes about 4.5/5 years to complete these 12 Levels.

    You get a new badge for each level, so you would end up with 12 new badges which get stitched onto the training t-shirt the person wears to class.

    It means going through 12 gradings and paying £12 for the first 4 levels and £17 for last 8 levels.

    After the Student Levels, the person goes onto the “Technician Level". This has 4 levels to it.

    To complete the 4 Technician levels, it can take upto 10 years or even more, in some cases. The Technician Levels are personally graded by Kernspecht, who is Leung Ting's most senior Student in Europe.

    The 1st Technician covers more of Sui Nim Tao and Chum Kiu, and this level takes 18 months to complete. And this grading costs about £100 or so.

    So it took around 4.5 years to complete the 12 Student Levels with badges and then another 1.5 years to do the Sui Nim Tao and Chum Kiu applications in the 1st Technician Level.

    The two hand forms have taken 6 years to complete. After completing the 1st Technician Level, the person is now an Assistant Instructor.

    Then the person moves onto the 2nd Technician Level , which takes 2 years to complete and this covers Biu Tze, the 3rd form. After this level has been completed, one can be regarded as a full Instructor.

    The 3rd Technician Level takes 3 years to complete. This covers the applications of Biu Tze and some parts of the Wooden Dummy (first 3 sections). With lots of Chi Sao.

    The 4th Technician Level takes 4 years or so to complete. This covers some more of the Wooden Dummy (sections 4 to 6). With lots of chi sao.

    After the 12 Student Levels and the 4 technician Levels, which have taken at least 15 years to do all 16 levels so far.

    The person then comes onto the “Practionner Level". This is the Master Levels and there is no time limit for how long it can take to complete them. These last few levels could be graded by Leung Ting himself.

    This starts off from level 5PG to level 8PG.

    For level 5PG, it completes the remaining two last sections of the Wooden Dummy (7 and 8) and lots of chi-gerk applications.

    After completing 5PG, one is considered a Master and able to fight unarmed in all situations.

    For 6PG, it covers most of the Long Pole forms with application.

    For 7PG, it completes the Long Pole.

    For 8PG, it completes the knives. This now makes you a Grandmaster of Wing Tsun.


    It took 4.5/5 years to complete 12 Student Levels.
    It took 10 years or so to complete 4 Technician Levels.
    It can take as long it takes to complete the 4 Master levels.

    So you are looking at 20+ years to complete the whole system in Leung Ting Wing Tsun. What if you took time out in training, that would mean more time added on top.

    Also to train in the weapons, one has to pay a lot of money to go to Germany to train in at a Castle.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2005
  2. PlumDragon

    PlumDragon "I am your evil stimulus"

    Thats kind of silly...4 or 5 years is not extremely unreasonable to fairly well master both SLT and Chum Kiu. Bil Gee and the wooden dummy form another 4 years, and bot jaam another year, again not extremely unreasonable but stretching it IMO.

    Its a small style though and realistically, on top of all the drills, etc, 1 year with each of the forms (SLT, chum kiu, bil gee, dummy) and 1 year with weapons is enough for you to teach. SLT is *packed* though and constantly deserves extra revisitation. From there its just perfecting forms and ability.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2005
  3. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Wing Chun is one of the quickest and simplest styles to learn. Four to five years for everything is quite possible. Of course it takes a lot longer to "master" everything.

    One thing I like it the freedom you have with the system. Once you learn the basic techniques you can use in any combinations that work for you and just play around and experiment to see what works. Another thing is that no technique is "wrong", by that i mean what ever you react with (say in self defence) should be effective. There are no specific combinations which must be trained. This makes it relatively simple to learn yet provides vast possibilities.

    Where i train there are 2 yellow levels, 2 red, 2 green, 2 brown and 4 black. You can grade every 3-6 months depending if your ready so it takes about a year to complete both yellow grades and a year for the red grades. From there its more of a case as to when your ready. Those who train hard i think you can still grade every 3-6 months through the green levels, again depending if your ready. From brown i think you wait to be asked to grade.

    Black 1 is the whole syllabus up to that point
    Black 2 is the dummy form
    Black 3 & 4 are the butterfly knifes and pole forms

    Most of the black belts I’ve spoken to have said they'll probably never grade further than black 1, there no point as they know the other forms.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2005
  4. 7thlevel

    7thlevel Valued Member

    @Diamond-geezer ,wingtsun has some good stuff to teach but as you are aware it is strectched out much more than needed = much more cash $$$. What you didnt mention is that you also have to travel to germany a lot if you want to do the higher technican grades and pay more than your regular fees while training for them. They also used to insist on anyone who wished to reach 5th pg level (master) leaving there job and teaching full time for them ,that way they have complete control over you.
    The 'pyramid' selling structure of ewto makes kernspecht and ting at the top very very rich since every instructor and student is sending money to them regulaly which comes from 3 year direct debit contracts the students are made to sign (which are hard to get out of).
    Students also have to become part of the teacher team if they want to learn the higher student grades, again more money.
    It is a shame that they are so political and money grabbing i spent a lot of cash in the years i was with them.

    Anyway there are also other wing chun groups which are just as bad for wasting your time heard of victor kan?, no student has ever finished his course even though he has had some students for over 20 years! william cheung,who invented his own wing chun, used to make students wait many years before reaching his 'instructor' grades then they would have to learn the hand forms again but a slightly different version of each one ! best off doing some research first before commiting to anything,
  5. Tseek Choi

    Tseek Choi Banned Banned

    Someones out for the money I think!

    As already mentioned Wing Chun is a relatively simple system.
    Great depth sure, but a simple system to grasp the basics of.
    3 hand forms & 2 weapons with regular training should be completed in 3-5 years max!

    If it takes 20 years to complete then someone is taking the pee!
  6. Seb Spiers

    Seb Spiers Valued Member

    "Completing" something, such as knowing all the forms etc, and having good structure and having things technically correct is quite acheivable in 5 years, but that doesnt mean youve got all you can get out of Wing Chun.

    I would agree with the 20+ years to master it, its the little things that are the hardest to master, and its those that count.
  7. ori-mental88

    ori-mental88 Valued Member

    OH Man!!! Just thinking about the Green 2 Pressure Test!!! They broke me throughout the final hours beasting of the Summer Camp!
  8. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Yeah i'm not looking forward to the pressure test! :eek:

    The next one is December right?
  9. ilikeitraw

    ilikeitraw New Member

    5 years

    Wing Chun could be mastered in 5 years.

    This system was developed by some Abbots at one of the Shaolin temples as an "expidited" training system. Most of the systems there did indeed take more than 20 years to "master"... but they needed a very effective system that one could become extremely efficient in, in less time (as the temples became more oppressed/attacked).

    Of couse, when they said "5 years", they are speaking of a fellow student of the temple... in which a day's work is spent mostly on training, temple duties, and the study of ch'en teachings.
    I probably train 5 hours a week... which really isn't that much.

    Of course, take the term "master" lightly, as you truly only "master" something the second before you die :D
  10. AuHg

    AuHg McDojo Happy Meal

    thats the way...LOL. in an article, sifu del brocco said it is not unusual to learn wing chun for 20+ years. but, this thread is more about those money hungry organisations.

    i dont need to pay 20 years worth of money to learn variation in hand forms. so far im only up to SNT, but I know 5 variations. and i practise them all.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2005
  11. Guohuazhai

    Guohuazhai New Member

    Wing Chun is a simple system, and should take with regular training a fews to obtain a GOOD UNDERSTANDING of it. It is simplified not like Shaolin Kung fu which takes many many years, which by that time we all will have grey hair and be too old to move.

    To be proficient to use WC in self defense takes only a few months. However, one never stops learning in Wing Chun we may know all the moves to the forms in approx 3-5 years, but does this mean we understand it? A master is still a student, with everyday still an oppurtunity to learn. Wing Chun is a science, a thinking person's way of fighting. There is always room for improvement and more efficient methods of employing the bio-mechanics of the human body to incapacitate an opponent. Kung fu is a journey that will never stop!
  12. Wax

    Wax Valued Member

    I train in WT and have no problem with the grading and fee's. The fee's are pretty much the same as most other Kung Fu styles I looked at.

    As a salesman myself and a capitalist to the core I can't see why someone should not reap the rewards of their dedication if they are providing a quality product.

    I understand that not all WT schools may have great instructors but my SiHing and SiFu, and other SiHings I've met, are all great teachers.

    If I wanted a cheap black belt I'd buy "The Real Ultimate Power".
  13. Tseek Choi

    Tseek Choi Banned Banned

    ah!!! no!!!!!!!!!!!

    What I mean is that to practice a system like WC for 20+ years is excellent, and should be commended.
    But to break down the silly-bus into so many grades that it takes a student years & years to get through the core training, ie. 3 hand forms and wooden dummy plus 2 weapons. Is just rediculous.

    I've met students of some famous/infamous "masters" in the UK that have been training 3 times a week for 2 years, have yet to complete SLT but have been asked to go out and start a new class.

    This is what I find offensive.
    The "teacher" milks the student for his cash, then gets them to start teaching well before they're ready, so the teacher can tie the student into their association and get even more cash.
    When really the student should be spending the first 3-5 years concentrating solely on their own training.
    This is then propagated down to the next generation so the "master" gets rich, the student learns very very little and the next generation of "students" learn nothing at all!
  14. diamond_geezer

    diamond_geezer New Member

    The thread was about being milked for every last penny you have with having a badge factory.

    As a matter of fact, Emin Boztepe who was probably the most popular student of Wing Tsun was promoted over and over again. Then Leung Ting and other "Grandmasters" wanted a larger share of the money from Emin Boztepe and other Intructors, but he refused. When they wanted money from him, he was rated as a big shot. Now they have broken off and gone elsewhere.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2005
  15. Wax

    Wax Valued Member

    Well I for one am glad that we have someone here that was in on the conversation they had before splitting. :bang:
  16. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    20 years seems an awful long time to master anything....
  17. Bjoern_VT

    Bjoern_VT Valued Member

    If you find someone selling the 1st Technician Level grab it lol you would have saved about 90% of the actual costs...

    anyway.. I would think that the whole basic system a well talented and determined pupil going 2-3 times a week to a reasoably good trainer should get the whole system with pole and knifes within 4-6 years I guess....

    of course it always depends on your own abilities, deterination and also on your own lazyness....

    in the Leunt Ting Wing Tsun it is different of course.... specially in Europe....
  18. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Ummm... no it wasn't.

  19. shaolin_hendrix

    shaolin_hendrix Hooray for Zoidberg!

    I don't like this 20 years system. WC was supposed to be a style that could be learned quickly. Also, from the videos I've seen of Bruce Lee and Leung Ting, it looks like Bruce Lee was about a million times better than Leung Ting at Wing Chun, and Bruce Lee only did WC for 5 years.
  20. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    There's two different issues here that I think should be seperated out.

    How much students are charged and How long it takes for students to reach certain grades.

    As far as the money side goes I don't think it's relevant. I don't see why martial arts teachers should be any different to any other trade in terms of charging what the market will stand. If he can find a big supply of students who are willing to pay a big wedge to him for his style of training, then all the best to him.

    As far as how long the training takes, it seems odd that this should happen with Wing Chun when everything I've read about it describes it as a system that was designed to be trained quickly in less than five years. That's quickly by the standards of the time, where training generally took a couple of decades. So I find the approach a bit bizzare.

    What I'm more interested in is what kind of fighters does this system produce?

Share This Page