I love Kuk Sool Hyung. They have a little bit everything from traditional Okinawan type of blocking, to Animal Techniques (kung fu), and even some Ki Exercises built in here and there. A little bit of everything. My question is this: Do you practice any Bunkai or Applications of the forms? And if so please share your stories. Personally I don't believe in doing a Hyung/Kata for the sake of doing it. I would love to hear some intrepreations of Kicho Hyung and Cho Gyup Hyung for combat. Now, before anyone gets started, yes, I have asked my teacher the same question. So lets go ahead and get that out of the way. What I would to hear is YOUR intrepetations of the Hyung. Many things are talked about in Kuk Sool but that is one area that is often neglected. In my humble opinion. Whats your thoughts?
Though it may seem soon to say, I'm disappointed that no one has added their thoughts on any of Kuk Sool hyung. Hopefully a few people may chime in later. I wonder in the 'higher' levels of Kuk Sool if they do any 'bunkai' or applications from the forms. I know we can see in some technique sets such as Mak Chi Gi and the higher level animal defense sets that showcase some applications from the forms. One example would be the 'Double Mantis Palm' as seen in Jung Gup Hyung. This same movement is found in Mak Chi Gi #14 ( or is 15? I can't remember). The X-blocks found in Ki Cho hyung, Cho Gyup Hyung, Jun Gup Hyung...etc, can be found also through many self defense sets (depending on what school I suppose) such as Mak Chi Gi, Mak Chu Gi, Ju Mok Kibon Sool...etc. I really would like to keep this thread alive. 109 people have viewed it so far, so there is an interest, just not any comments.
The movements in hyung are abstract and thus do not always translate into combat applications. Hyung practice is more about physical adaptation than fighting. You're training your body to get ready for application of technique, in such your focus should be, increase range of motion, muscle endurance, balance, posture, and many other things. IMO if someone is looking at hyung and trying to apply them directly to combat they are missing the philosophy of why hyung are important and for that matter necessary.
I noticed very few applications that were beyond the obvious within the hyung; and some of those a stretch. What I did find interesting though, is here and there the movements of some of the wristlock techniques that are very similar to movements in kata from elsewhere.
in the beginning of jase soge/il ja/cho geup hyeong there is a cool move where a person is supposed to throw a straight attack, then you grab that limb as you step back into a long stance and—POW—double palm strike.
Adding to the discussion, here is the only video I've found from years ago after many hours of searching Youtube that showcased any martial applications to Kuk Sool hyung. The following video is of section 1 of Ki Cho Hyung: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnVdHE1Ewvo"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnVdHE1Ewvo[/ame] I thought it was an excellent demonstration. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnVdHE1Ewvo"]Kuk Sool Won of Ft. Myers, Ki Cho Hyung Application - YouTube[/ame]
Kuk Sool Won forms are used for all of the following: -Balance -Strength -Agility -Endurance -Ki training -Motion and transition
BTW Doom, just curious when was your Instructor a member of the WKSA? I see that you (the art) are using a WKSA Logo with Korean 국술원 instead of 합기도 (Hapkido)
In this Northern Longfist Kung Fu video, in my opinion, you can see many similarities to Kuk Sool hyungs. http://youtu.be/GRFVPA4TCnA For example the Horse stance, crossed leg stance, and the bow stance are all used both in Kuk Sool and this video. There are a few similar movements here. But its enough to give you an idea of the possiblities of the Kuk Sool forms. I do agree with those that say there are some parts of various Hyung that just aren't applicable. But, for my own personal martial journey I prefer to keep searching to find deeper meaning and further use from my training tools, the Kuk Sool hyung. The way forms were taught in Okinawa and in China is that they are to reflect your fight skills and vice versa. They are one and the same. But I have heard, and most people tend to agree that the Kuk Sool forms appear to be more for health and appearence than a Combat applications tool. But I have to say there is alot of interesting stuff in Kuk Sool forms.
What in one of the videos? No, not at all. None of the videos feature me or my teacher. These are just videos that seem applicable to the discussion. My instructor trained in Chicago under the Ma brothers (Master Yang for a while, as well as a couple other instructors). The Ma brothers broke away from Kuk Sool Won and started JunTong Moo Sool (not to be confused with the other two Juntong Moo Sool organizations). Master Yang (I think that is his name) broke away from Kuk Sool Won and started Kuk Sool Do. Charlie, my instructor, also trained under a few Hapkido people. So I really can't say when he was ever WSKA. There is possibitly that his teachers broke away from Kuk Sool Won in 80's or 70's. Not sure. But I would assume that he started learning from them either as they broke away from the KSW or after. I don't know. But no, I am not afflicted with WSKA. We just call what we do Hapkido. I have a question: a few people here seem suscipioius of me for some reason. Wanting to know who my teachers are and whether I'm affliated with WSKA. Did I do something wrong? I'm just wondering.
@Xanth - The only thing I can figure out as to what your referring to would be a logo that Charlie used years ago for a short while that one of his earlier students I think designed for Charlie. I did see the Kuk Sool Won hangul in the logo instead of Hapkido hangul. So I see how that would be confusing. But no affliation with WSKA nor claim any.
That's an interesting statement. Did you study overseas? or is there something in particular that you have read that proves that? If true then I'd agree with those who say Hyung (Kata) is a waste of time, if hyung is suppose to mimic combat then why not just spar, or grapple?
Not at all. I do not mean to imply Hyung is a waste of time. Rather I'm always looking to improve. Thats all. Have not studied oversea's. Why would you need proof to validate Okinawans and Chinese who value their kata/taolous as a combat application and muscle memory tool?
when we learn a form, we learn the motions first. we usually get the meaning out of master yang when we are all messing up big time. geom mu hyeong is a perfect example of what i think obewan was saying. the motions all have meaning, but the coordination of moving our limbs and breathing (in, holding, holding how much air, and letting out) are priority there. you should have said you were a student of master ma in chicago! i think only one brother owns a school now, but its nice inside. one of his students came out here to the bay area and took lessons with us. hard style teaching.
My teacher was a student of the Ma Brothers and for a time Master Yang and a few other Korean Masters. I've never trained with Master Ma, Master Chu or Master Yang. I want to one day meet my teachers instructors. That is a goal of mine. On the forms, I'm still very green. The breathing is not something I've got into yet. But it is something I need to work on.
The reason I ask is that I've never seen anyone use hyung in combat with any success. However I think basic principles of hyung can be translated to combat not in verbatim but rather conceptually. A reverse punch for instance coupled with the proper stance and body alignment can be a devastating technique. Those principles are developed in hyung practice. Lowering the body during grappling and maintaining balance is also developed in hyung training. Kicks used in conjunction with movement and hand techniques develop muscle memory and so on. However when I see videos such as the Kung Fu one you posted I question the reasoning. Is that video showing me how I'm suppose to fight? or is it showing me conceptual application of the movements in the form? I would hope the later, in that case there is some value in the teaching.
I have to agree with the OP - I love Kuk Sool hyung as well. But like Obiwan has stated, I was always of the mind that they were more "training forms" and not ones that centered on direct application. (Although that video clip of Ki Cho Hyung #1 combat interpretation is pretty cool.) For me Hyung practice is a good measure of physical conditioning and endurance. I know that if I can't do all my forms in 4 directions up to 3rd (and now working on 4th) dahn then I'm in trouble. I have forms in my repertoire that are reflective of various traditions - Hapkido, TKD, Karate, Tang Soo Do and of course Kuk Sool - but it is the Kuk Sool hyung that I find the most physically demanding! And I have a 1st Dahn student from another Hapkido tradition – who while pretty good at his own forms - still struggles with the Kuk Sool forms that I’ve shown him so far. I think it true that they require just that much more of you in terms of the physical attributes that Xanth mentions.
I don't have a problem with you being WKSA or not...just curious that the web site had the logo with Hangul for KSW. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sullivan-Traditional-Hapkido-Academy/107426015984736