Hi ok then for the record answer these questions. 1. When did you start training in a Bujinkan dojo under a real teacher? 2. Who is your teacher? 3. What is your current rank? I am going to make a wide guess at your answers 1. Not yet 2. I dont have one 3. not ranked yet not even Mukyu, because i have never set foot in a dojo. Did I answer correctly for you????????
Hi All As its been pointed out I 'may' have mistaken the term Ninjitsu as being Ninjutsu Lets maybe think of something here Ninjutsu is the correct spelling and one used by many who know the correct terminology, als used by many who know nothing about Ninjutsu. Ninjitsu is the term used as a misspelling and commonly found on many web sites and books and tends to be used by some schools that do not know the correct spelling. Ninjitsu is also used by many members of the X-kan who do not know the correct spelling. Therefore is we see Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu we assume they are meaning one and the same and can be read as the same. As for my reference that Mr Hayes does knows something about Ninjutsu I will stand by that 100% and I will not agree that he does not, when the statement is made as such by someone who has never trained in the Bujinkan but tours forums and joining in chat regarding the Bujinkan as he if had been a member for 20 years. Mr Khan when I started in the Bujinkan in 1985 we had a term for those who wanted to be but were not - armchair ninja, I have seen another term which suits someothers better - desktop warriors/ninja.
No. You should go off of more than the word of people that have an interest in the subject matter. Toshindo excells in propaganda if nothing else. To illustrate this point, just who gave Steve permision to give out certificates in arts, when he has not been given one himself? For that matter, when has he had every last kata of the schools he teaches and gives out certificates for observed and corrected by the the soke of those arts? And yet he thinks he is qualified to set up training programs in those systems and give certificates? Or, for that matter, Soke does not have video courses in his arts or give out rank based on them but Steve does. Toshindo has strayed from its Bujinkan roots. That may not be a bad thing, but is is just flat out wrong to say that Steve is teaching the same stuff in the same manner as Japan. I take it you yourself never have bothered to train in Japan before making your comments.
Again, you do not know my situation. We're stationed in Bangladesh now and the closest dojo is a part-time dojo three countries away (which I believe is now closed). I've stated numerous times how much I wanted to train. Also, I have NO problem with Mr. Hayes, my statement indicated that he never taught Frank Dux/Ashida Kim "ninjitsu", rather he taught Soke's ninjutsu. On a different note, Mr. Richardson, the new Hanako is excellent.
Also, I will FINALLY attend my first class next week as my family will be in Singapore, where Justyn Olby Shidoshi teaches. Hope all goes well- I've been waiting for this moment for years.
Title I refer to my teacher by a chinese title because he does not exclusively teach ninjitsu he teaches a CMA style developed by him and Master Li Chi Keung. As far as the Certificat goes it just says that he attained the rank of (not sure what it is called) etc. You would have to go and see it. But to clarify for everyone I will go to the class today and find out the truth from him as it has been a bit since I was in cause of the holidays and my memory does leave something to be desired.
'This comment seems to suggest that Mr Hayes was not good enough to achieve 15th Dan, when in fact Mr Hayes achieved 10th dan (which at the time was the highest one could go) in 1993. Now sometime in 1993 Hatsumi Sensei introduced the 11th, 12th, 13th 14th and 15th dan levels. So you see that Mr Hayes achieved the higest rank possible at the time 10th Dan. After all for many years 10th dan was the highest grade one could achieve before Hatsumi Sensei moved the goal posts. Obviously Mr Hayes has his own reasons why he decided not to continue with the 11th, 12th dans etc' There probably is a good reason for the additional grades, ie more to learn. If SKH has not graded since 1993 i would suggest there still is a lot more to learn and even the 15th Dans still train at Honbu. As for whether he is Good enough, well if ones does not continue to train at the source how can one progress especially as training becomes NEW every year, ie keeping up with the flow. and as for the ranking in ryu specific grades one would need Menkyô Kaiden. last thought though, the book 'Ninja: Spirit of the Shadow Warrior' published in 1980! Things have changed and there is alot better on the market.
Stated by Bond James Bond You know i actually agree with you. Mr Hayes started training in 1975 and 18 years later after living in japan for a few years and then visiting regularly finally got his 10th dan in 1993. But of course here in the UK some only started in approx 1982 and got their 10th dans in approx 1993 only 10 years training. And these individuals only visited there now and again. So yes I guess these people do need the extra training. As for other things you may wish to know about To-Shin Do then visit the link below. http://www.quest-l.com/faq.php Gary Arthur
Erm, so does this imply that there are 10th dan or higher ranked Bujinkan instructors in the UK that you think are inferior to SKH? Or that SKH doesn't need to train any more as he already knows everything? Or that Hatsumi has got his gradings all wrong? (well all those after SKH anyway)
Gary, your post started so well. I for a second thought well maybe i've got Gary (arthur) wrong. But then the obvious comment above after Hayes graded Judans! Out of order, big time. For your information the Judan+'s i know that fit into that criteria look and move more like whats currently being taught. The training i 'see' looks radicallly different to my firstr viewing in 1990 and i'm sure it will change more in the next 15 years. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is alive, its not some course to 'complete' once you understand a level of training, another one comes along and makes you feel like a white belt again. Right out of comfort zone into scratching head mode. There is no end. I bet if you ask Dale that he does not think his training has finished because of his recent grade. and in my opinion anyone thinking they have 'learnt' everything misses the point. For me its not the techniques, its not the grade but the person the student becomes through training, ie their Heart. Those with the right 'heart' are easy company and easily spotted and those that i gravitate towards.
Actually, for some reason I found myself thinking about this very thing after Soke handed me the Jugodan menkyo in class on 11/27. And, while there were other reasons that were more important to me at the time, it was one of the reasons why, as he was doing calligraphy for people a little later, I asked him to write Gambatte -- "Keep going" -- for me. The sheet is framed now, and hangs on the inside of the front door to my apartment, where it is the last thing I see every time I go out into the world. By the way, I have never had my dan rank posted at my website until now; and the only reason it's there now is because by the time I came back from Japan it seemed to be all over the internet already. I finally traced down the original leak: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31873 So it's now on the website; but I think the statement immediately after it is perhaps even more important: http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#dalerank
LOL lots tracking for nothing Dale you should have asked, as most of us had read this before the ink was dry on your Jugodan and watched it spread like a wild fire. :love:
Ok I am officially an idiot. :bang: Yes it can be said I am an idiot. :bang: I was rereading the info on my school and it says that Richard Takyama teached Ninjitsu to my teacher. It does also say that he recieved Ninjitsu training from Stephen K. Hayes but I beleive that that was a printing error made by whoever set up the website. He probably did learn Toshindo from him instead of Ninjitsu. You guys were right I was wrong. :bang:
Nope, you`ve redeemed yourself by saying you were wrong, goes a long way in my eyes, i wish some others on this site would follow suit
Posted By Bond James Bond Again I agree with you. There is certainly a difference in the way that Hatsumi and the Bujinkan operate now than 5, 10 or 15 years ago. As Hatsumi has said "Does not the weather change every day?" However to put this into perspective, I have a friend who does Judo. Hes in his 60s now and been training in Judo for years and he holds a Shodan. I went to the Judo club one night to see him teach a private class and to put it bluntly I was astounded by his skill. Amazing throws and ground work, he really was truelly like a master. I asked him why he did not have a 5th dan with his skill and years of experience and this is roughly what he said to me. "You know Judo is constantly changing. In the early days we would grab each other and try to get each others balance and then throw, but today if you watch the competitions, its completely different, they actually try to avoid grabbing. Thats not for me. I liked the way I was taught it in the old days, and because I don't keep up with the new rules and tactics of play they kind of frown on what i do. So my friends Judo is not the same as today. Can he do judo?, can he put you on your a$%e?, Can he put you in a ground hold that the average man would not be able to get out of, and choke you into submission or a knock out in less than three seconds?. You Bet he can. And do you know the best thing. Although he is a junior in rank to many of the less time served 5th dans, none of them doubt his skill and are actually quite wary of him. Now to put this into perspective, Mr Hayes was in Japan in the early days of training before anyone really knew about the art, or Hatsumi Sensei. Now in those days the training was brutal, something that has been confirmed to me by Mr Hayes, Tanemura Sensei and Doron Navon. Today the training is the opposite. Thats not to say that the training is'nt effective, just different. You know I guess theres a type of training that best suits certain individuals. Some like the way that Hatsumi teaches now, others as it was years ago. The same thing happened to me with the Genbukan. I loved the training years ago. To me it seemed like it was a very realistic and painful method of learning Ninpo Taijutsu and I loved it because it pushed me to the limit. But then they started to teach Yagyu Shingan Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu and in my opinion it became more of a historical society rather than Ninpo. So I took the decision to leave. Now To-Shin Do is what I do. Mr Hayes still teaches the original kata of the schools as he was taught them all those years ago, and indeed they may not be how Hatsumi Sensei teaches them today. But I have seen what Hatsumi sensei teaches today both on DVD and at seminars, and although it might be for some, (and indeed I would not turn down the offer of seeing or buying even a Hatsumi DVD, or if the opportunity arose again to go to a seminar taught by him), I prefer the To-Shin Do approach I guess its a case of horses for courses. There are many roads to the top of the mountain, and I believe we should not condemn another person for taking a different road. Especially when at the end of the day we will all reach the top and may find that the path we took, although it got us to the top, was not the best road to take. Gary Arthur www.toshindo.co.uk
Now to put this into yet another perspective, it's not just a matter of training methodology. One of the things Soke has done in his teaching approach is to use a shoden/chuden/okuden sort of progression. . .not in terms of teaching the transmission material designated at those (or equivalent terminology) levels, but in terms of progressively more advanced "conceptual levels" over the years. This is something I've previously addressed elsewhere in this forum: And some of us have been around long enough to understand the entire progression process. True, some will happily remain at a "shoden" conceptual level their whole lives. But they shouldn't attempt to delude themselves, or convince others, that they're doing anything more than that.
