For all you BBD'ers!! Gikan Ryu

Just thought of something that fits in here...well sort of

"Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view."

 

...and the majority of the rest are down to what we were told by someone else...

 

Ok, here you go.

Oh, so you are saying that my knowledge base is "fragile."

Just so you know, I fully believe that I know more about the Gikan ryu than Brian will ever know. I have learned from Soke and picked up things that he taught through other people. And I continue to learn from them. That is more than Brain can say.

We have all seen where mistaken impressions have been discused as fact here and elsewhere. Now since Brain has insufficient training in Gikan ryu, we can reasonably expect one of his ill- trained students to talk about what he learned on the internet as if it were fact. Just like the straight bladed ninja-to. Brain's lack of knowledge does not only impact him or his students, but has the potential to impact any student trying to get knowledge from reading the internet.

So in the future, we may see people treat some of Brian's ego trip treated as fact instead of a mistake. That impacts students and makes those of us that try to correct mistakes to divert our efforts elsewhere.

Can you prove that Brian learned from something other than DVDs and other people's notes? Give me a straight answer here?

Oh, and IIRC means "If I Remember Correctly" FYI.

 

Even if Brians experience of Taijitsu is out of date or not fully explored etc there is not escaping the guy can look after himself which is in essence what the art is about.

To be good at Ninjitsu for my money is being able to adapt it to fit you as an individual with seems pretty simple and if your ok and pretty open then you can do. Brian the few times I have trained with him could do this and do it well, yes he was a bit more power orientated than some Bujinkan people I have trained but it is perhaps because of his Karate and Kickboxing background prior to Taijitsu.

Just my view, in order to be good at Ninjitsu you need to adapt it - that is what he is doing, its what I have done, taken what is good and made it work better for me with a bit of tweaking here and there.

Is this not what is meant by the "Go Play" phrase, once you have the basics improve it.

 

Good for you! Be happy in your training.

Perhaps I am wrong but it seems you are basing your arguement on events that have yet to transpire. One being the actual subject matter getting taught and the other is an "ill- trained student" chatting away on the net. I have yet to see either.

Interesting choice of langauge Grim. Yet another personal attack on one person who, I assume, has better things to do with their time than respond to you? Easy target really.

I would like to introduce a novel concept. Now bear with me because this might come as a bit of a shock and may require people to think!

Could it be possible that at this event, yet to transpire, that Brian might, just might, teach whatever was taught to him (and his interpretation of it) at the time of his training with Hatsumi? The words "Gikan" and "Ryu" might not even be mentioned! Would it make a difference if they were? Of course not; I am assuming the emphasis will be placed on koppo jitsu and not Hatsumi's lastest and greatest carrot like piece of info!

Perhaps I wasted my breath in my last post as you seem to have taken none of it in. At time this forum is like beating your head against a VDU :bang: :bang: !

Sorry, but what a daft question. Wouldn't it be better put to somebody else?

 

No and no.

If you want to push the idea that Brian actually learned Gikan ryu from Soke, then please provide proof rather than speculation. And after advertising Gikan ryu, I have serious doubts that he would fail to do so.

Oh, and if Brian has better things to do than respond to me, then why are you trying to fill in for him?

God, the Ashida Kim folks seem to be more honest than what I see from you guys.

 

no i didn't say your knowledge base was fragile;

i said IF your knowledge base IS that fragile then...blah blah...

i prefixed it 'with respect' to highlight that i was taking issue with the example you gave as your 'worry' as opposed to taking issue with you personally...

now that was written in pretty clear english and you CHOSE to interpret that as a direct attack on your knowledge, instead of thinking about just what i meant with my words. My point was actually to reinforce your knowledge because i doubt very much that you are stupid or guilable (bad spelling) enough to be led astray by info that you pick up from x-bbd members who may end up in your dojo or titbits you read on the internet.

I was merely highlighting that the 'worry' you chose to express as your issue with my 'avoidance of the question' was not really a worry at all was it?

and it certainly didn't justify you claiming that i am going around 'leading attacks on people'

i'm glad for you...but these are things that you care about, not me.

i'm pleased you learn from soke, all power to you. enjoy the trip.

i don't presume to know what brian would say, and if you are hoping that by taking a shot at him you are in some way getting to me, then i'm afraid your wasting ammo.

the internet which we all know to treat to a great big pinch of salt?

the internet where, if a student reads something, they then go to their instructor and have it verified?

oh, yeah, ninja-toh, that was an internet myth was it? funny that, it was published in books before the www. existed and the internet consisted of little more than ftp sites and email clients, and the only people who had access to it were academic research depts, the military and the serious computer geeks. Now the ninja-toh has nothing to do with brian and everything to do with your personal crusade concerning SKH...and guess what...it is one of those facts that once you learn of the truth of, it has NO bearing on the quality of someones taijutsu....so i file it under...irrelevent!

(i'm being a bit sarky again, but i'm not trying to offend you)

my point is that problems are being created/magnified in an attempt to justify the way this thread was started...and the logic is getting more tenuous at each successive attempt.

are you asking about gikan ryu specifically? i'll assume so.

no, of course i can't...can you prove he did? no, of course you can't...but was that the little nugget you were looking for? is that the BBD admitting defeat? or you framing a question to get the answer you want as opposed to accepting the many answers i have provided over the last 36hrs or so?

 

1.no you want to push the idea that brian is claiming more than he is. period.

2.we're not 'filling in for anyone'...i'm defending myself, the people i have trained with for the last nine years and my own intelligence.

and the thread was aimed at all us BBD'ers..so i guess we're in the right place..

3.who's getting personal now?

 

We're just going around in circles here. Has anyone else have anything more to add or nitpick about? Or has this thread served it's purpose?

Got an idea, go to the top of the page and "rate this thread". After a day or so, let's see what rating this thread has and get an idea as to whether we're wasting our time with it or not.

While what the BBD does or not do may not directly affect me, I still have to read
each and every post to be sure that TOS are not being violated. Some of you have come awfully darn close. No one has complained to me, yet, so I have aloowed this discussion to continue. But frankyl, I'm tired of it and want to lock it down.

As has been said, it's the people, not the politics. Or, as Hatsumi has said "Shut up and train".

 

Grim: Thanks for the info on IIRC! Every time I look at someone writing that, I start thinking they're big fans of the International Race of Champions series (IROC), and I get all confused. I seriously never knew what it meant, sad me. Tear.

I know I said I was bowing out of all this, but I have here on my lap this blue video tape. I purchased it in 1997, I believe (my memory is a bit hazy on this one) at the NJ Tai Kai or maybe 1998. The title?

"KIHON HAPPO with the feeling of GIKAN RYU by SOKE MASAAKI HATSUMI, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Dojo" released by Bujinkan Albuquerque Dojo, Bernalillo, NM 87004.

Does something like this have any bearing on the conversation? I realize it simply says, "With the feeling of", which may also translate into, "Just some thoughts or concepts but no real techniques", so all I can offer up is that is what the title says.

I haven't watched this tape in months, but recall that on my first viewing it seemed to revolve around using space and intent against two opponents more than technique. Oh, that and some really punishing elbow and forearm strikes/cuts across the floating ribs. I'm popping it into the VCR to see what come up. It's really, really short, so I'll be back in a bit to see if there's anything in there to distinguish it beyond what I already noted.

Or maybe not. I just saw Kurohana's post, and if he wants to lock it, cool beans by me.

--Snake

 

Yeah I'm running out of Star Wars quotes anyway!! :bang:

 

No and no.
I beleive you are wrong but each to their own so-to-speak.

If you want to push the idea that Brian actually learned Gikan ryu from Soke, then please provide proof rather than speculation. And after advertising Gikan ryu, I have serious doubts that he would fail to do so.

As Xen has said, we are not the ones pushing that idea.

Some choose to spread falsehoods or pass cart blanche comments on a topic they really know little about? I guess that it the nature of the internet.

From my point of view it stands to reason that the vast majority of "Hatsumi type info" within the BBD may have remained resonably static since the split from the Buj. I don't have a problem with that. In actual fact it has probably made it easier to explore the fundementals without twisting panties over the latest Japanese tit bit (that is another debate however ). You seem to want to progagate the idea, even though you have little or no understanding of how the training has developed within the BBD, that if Gikan Ryu is mentioned in reference to koppo jitsu in a long list of topics for a seminar then that immediately makes whatever may get taught invalid or a con. Am I correct in that statement?

I doubt very much we will get handed vast streams of paper giving intricate details of hidden Gikan Ryu techniques! That isn't what I want from my training. Is that what you expect to happen?

Oh, and if Brian has better things to do than respond to me, then why are you trying to fill in for him?

Like Xen I am not attempting to "fill in" for somebody else. It strikes me, however, that some people who wish to attack or criticise the club I am a member of do so, not through intelligent debate or polite questioning, but through personal attacks on the chief instructor. Perhaps that is the only avenue really open to them. All I do is give my opinion and take it from there.

God, the Ashida Kim folks seem to be more honest than what I see from you guys.

lol, nice try

This thread is over for me. Total waste of time; that was probably the thread starters intention in the first place. :woo: :woo:

 

I think the above is likely true, and I don't have a problem with it either. I think it also stands to reason that Brian McCarthy has tried to continue faithfully conveying what he understood of Hatsumi sensei's teaching during the time he was in the Bujinkan.

That, however, does raise what I feel is a relevant point regarding Hatsumi sensei's teaching approach. Looking at one fairly common model of transmission of koryu arts (not just ours):

Training material in various feudal-era Japanese ryuha was generally organized into low, middle, and high skill levels (shoden, chuden, and okuden, or comparable terms). When it came to family/clan arts, one's social status/position also dictated how far one might advance, just as was the case in other areas of Japanese society.

Let's imagine it's the mid-1500s, during the Warring States period in Japan, and you're a young peasant living on the Kuki family holdings in Kumano and you've just been drafted as an ashigaru or foot-soldier for a clan conflict. You'd be taught a low-level form of Kukishin ryu featuring powerful strikes, kicks, some joint-breaking locks and basic throws; and a little staff and spear work; and then sent out to fight. These things can be learned fairly quickly; in their basic form they work pretty well most of the time; and it's time- and cost-effective to teach them to large numbers of young, strong men who can heal quickly (or if they do bite the big one on the battlefield, it's no great loss because you can always conscript more).

Senior NCOs and junior officers learn to a higher level, with additional weapons and with more advanced strategic concepts which make it all work more easily. It takes longer to become proficient at this level, but these are people you WANT to invest more training time in because of their relatively higher importance and higher need (for the clan) for them to stay alive.

Senior generals, retainers who've been with the family for generations, clan leaders and their immediate family members, and so on -- i.e., the "brain and nerves" of the clan, important people you can be pretty sure won't be on the other side in the next war and whose continued existence DEFINES the clan and gives it meaning -- will get the highest level of training, spooky stuff that seems to work magically without effort and which our ashigaru above might not even recognize as the same art if he saw it being used. Again, the training time for proficiency is much longer, but these are the clan aristocracy -- precisely the people who HAVE the time and the intellectual acumen to learn it.

Conceptually, this is related to the way Hatsumi sensei has transmitted his arts over the last couple of decades. When I began training twenty years ago, the focus was very "shoden-level". After a few years, he adopted a more "chuden-level" approach for the people who were still around; and for the last several years the focus has been okuden-level. The shoden/chuden/okuden type of transmission has been based on time periods rather than on classes of people training.

As a specific example, I thought the Gyokko ryu I learned 17-18 years ago was incredible stuff. Some years later we were going through it again, and I thought, "WOW!! I never knew all this was in there!!" (Not just in terms of previously-unseen densho material, but in terms of concepts involved which I'd never heard mentioned before.) Then in 2001, here we go again -- now with all sorts of esoteric stuff added (geomantic energies and "tactical Fu Sui", etc.); "new" kamae and how they can be used; "new" waza. . .and the movement and the approach to even "old, familiar" waza were such that a person who had only learned Gyokko ryu on the level I was at 17 or 18 years ago would probably not even have been able to recognize it as the same art.

The basics remain the basics, of course. And if one is satisfied with that, it's perfectly fine with me.

BTW, I voted on this thread per Kurohana's suggestion but couldn't find a category titled "Most Useless Thread Ever", so I just did the best I could.

 

dale,

thanks for the post and especially these lines....

thats all any of us in the BBD have been trying to get accross.

 

Mr Chapman.

the reason I have suggested that you grow up is because of the lack of maturity you have previously displayed in this thread.
its a valid question, and you have every right to express your opinions, but please, just think for a brief moment how you would feel if the tables were turned, and have the respect for others by not criticising them every opportunity.

and as for spooky being the 'culprit', I'll be very surprised if he continues to train with someone who has just betrayed him, and who has just tried to get the heat off of himself and onto a friend, because I sure as hell wouldnt.
the fact stands, you posted it, whether he asked you to or not, your still the one who must accept responsibility for this.

and please note for all those who think I speak for the BBD, I dont, I speak for myself.
and the reason I have responded to such a pointless thread is because I dont want people to be so close minded about an organisation I have grown to love and respect, it works for me, and thats what I care about.

and to spooky, I dont think you can ever run out of star wars quotes...just speak wookie for a while or something.

and btw, your asking the wrong people about whats going to happen at this course, there is no way we could know this or prove that it is authentic, the only person who can do that, as has been said has much better things to do with his time.

I personally would like to apologise to Kurohana for this thread and the fact that hes forced to read everyones post, and out of respect to him, this will be the last post I contribute to it, anyone wants to discuss/argue with me any further, please feel free to PM me.

I'll say this again, in caps.

THE OPINIONS I EXPRESS ON THIS FORUM ARE MY OWN, THEY ARE NOT THAT OF THE BBD.

ok...I'll shutup now :Angel:

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Nah, spooky will be fine, he's laid back and chilled.

This has run its course and i can't see how anything else could be said that was not a rehashing of previous posts.

I suggest to the Gods er Mods to closed the thread so we can get on with the important things in life................training, training, training, Starwars and of course more training!

 

Just out of interest, how much did you win and is it enough to buy me a car?

By the way, I won the Lottery too last Saturday, it was just three numbers for a tenner. I really wanted the £79Million Euromillions Jackpot the other week, but some Irish woman beat me to it (Bernadette O'Houlahan or something)....still, a £10 Lottery win is better than a kick in the teeth

 

Put it this way, its enough to build an extension on the house for Norm when he comes up!!! (away from my wifes jammies)

 

Was the Buj not questioned recently and the tables turned in another couple of threads?

Please do not try again to deflect the thread into a gregfest but look at the questions asked and answer them, you see the last dozen posts have been good ones once people take my name out of it!!!

 

thats true greg, and if i remember correctly, i was contributing to that thread to give you guys some support, you may not have wanted it, asked for it or needed it, but the contributions were offered in the spirit of friendship and understanding of the situation.

like i have said...if i asked you, on a public forum, to describe details of techniques you were shown at a national course, you wouldn't have given an answer...indeed, no bujinkan member would have asked another x-kan member to discuss publically the specifics of technique.

the question is a valid one...however the framing of it and the feeling that comes from your first post was not one of enquiry and you know that the people who do post from the BBD on this forum weren't in a position to answer it.

i thought over the last six months or so we'd sorted all this out over our PM exchanges. You know full well that if you had PM'd me about the upcoming course, asking me to specifically try and pick up some info about the whole 'gikan' issue, i'd have been happy to oblige and would have PM'd you with some answers to the question.

now, we've answered the question, (as best we can), so now can I ask you...

1. to offer some reasoned response to why we have to describe techniques on an open forum?

2. why you chose to make this a public affair, when our relationship is good enough for you to have got an answer of far greater meaning if you had approached me privately?

i'm not hounding or attacking you greg, but organisational differences aside, speaking from our time training together in the past, it feels like you are sticking the knife in again and again...i can only keep smiling and laughing about if for so long.

edit: just gone back to the main forum page and seen kc's post on the other ryu thread...happy now greg?