zone out scoring and implications (eg. Sumo)

Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by cloudz, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    Just curious what other people's thoughts and experiences are around this. I have done a fair bit of taiji grappling, but often with a fairly loose rule-set (in comparison to formal taiji competitions).

    In personal training have often dropped the zone and related scoring and my basic observation was that it lowered the intensity level, which is sometimes a good thing. You see a similar situation and rule in Sumo, but as far as I am aware these are the main two styles that use this. maybe there are some others I'm not aware of ?

    But I've recently returned to this (zoning) and need to raise up my game somewhat.

    The tendency is the smaller the zone the higher the 'intensity' or I can describe it as the 'need' to hold and keep ground, control and move your opponent. technique is of course one side of it, but types of strength and conditioning play a large part also. The zone can have a number of implications and can certainly force you into more errors sometimes I found. When combined with takedowns/ throws/ trips etc. it has a different dynamic to it I think.

    Anyway how do you think this zone thing changes things (whether you have much experience in it or not). And what is it with Sumo, I know they are fit for purpose but clearly size/weight must count for something here, and it seems fat is ok.. as long as your other attributes are there and sufficient.

    So is Sumo weight training more or less the equivalent of eating more ? that doesn't seem right does it. Why isn't Sumo more conducive to the Western athletic ideals like wrestling formats (Greco/ freestyle); is that about sheer weight perhaps and how it relates to the zone ?

    How do they train for their strength requirements I wonder, as I need to improve on my strength endurance at this time. I need to keep my strength going for longer basically. I have some basic ideas to implement and work on but I tend to progress slowly (lazy like that), but any suggestions would be cool. Having recently lost some kilos (10%) I'm not about to start over feeding myself lol. And am pretty ok with my weight as it is now.

    thanks for listening to my ramblings :eek:
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Sumo has a very limited rule set, bouts are very short and has no weight categorizes what so ever and no top weight limit.

    if you add all that up, and the number one way to beat someone is to push or lift them out the ring then getting as heavy as you can, as flexible as you can and as explosive as you can makes sense.

    They accomplish this by eating a ton of protein, doing a load of flexibility work, body weight exercises and pushing explosively all the time, be it against a post or another mountain sized opponent.

    a large Mass moving quickly usually beats a smaller mass moving just as quickly when it comes to impact and winning the initlal shove. and once you have them moving backwards they usually lose.

    Cant think of another combat sport that uses zones as you call it, but strongman and highland games use something similar, two guys in a ring strapped to a log and they push each other out the ring, the bigger guys tend to always win.

    Judo penalizes if you step out side the mat, but also if you push someone outside, it depends what you want to see:
    rules make matches, add pushing outside a matted area as a winning strategy and grappliing matches would look different because they would have a different way to win.

    Or put another way a judoka would watch a BJJ match and say dump him on his head and win stop messing around on the floor, a BJJer would watch a judo match and say ippon seonage me and im taking your back and choking you out, and a sumo wrestler would look at both and say why dont i just steamroller you small guys straight off the mat?
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    In Freestyle, you see the ring as a yellow circle with a red ring around it. If you step past the red ring you give your opponent 1 point and you restart in the middle.
    As you wrestle away, the Ref will shout out "Zone Red - Blue/Red" (your singlet) when you're in that red ring.
    So strategically this makes you either having to change position, work a throw, basically anything to prevent you from stepping out. Especially if you're in a dominant clinch.
    The Opponent might here it and simply then try to shove you out for an easy 1 point. A completely valid tactic to which I have proudly done.

    In my last comp, my Opponent did that to me, he was bigger, looked a bit like former WWE Ryback (google away) and in a collar/elbow tie he was shoving me back. A few steps into it, I managed to twist and Seo Nage/Over shoulder threw him, using his forward momentum.
    I argued it was 4 points but according to the Ref, my foot stepped out of the ring and my throw didn't count for anything. If my foot was within the ring, I would've got the points despite landing outside.
  4. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I like a small score for push-outs because it relates to how you use space fighting in a world that contains obstacles. Also makes for bigger techniques as it incentivises trying to move each about/keep from being moved.

    The way many use the edge in US Folkstyle, with no push out rule, is to keep their back against it so that their attacks go into open space but their opponent's go out of bounds. In current Freestyle, with a push out rule, you get lots of fun action as people try to control the centre of the mat.

    The Judo version, as per usual, seems aimed at generating the maximum possible volume of refereeing rather than fighting.
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    thanks, I appreciate all the feedback guys.
    Good stuff, cheers

    "pushing explosively all the time"

    Good call, I'm going to try something along those lines to bring into my workout. Might have to make do with a wall or tree though.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  6. ned

    ned Valued Member

    The last (taiji) competition I did , the matt area for moving push hands was noticeably smaller than any previous with not much more than a step back behind.
    The result was quicker plays with more single point push outs of area and less space to set up cleaner (and higher scoring) techniques.

    Having a bit more room allows for an initial clinch with subsequent positional adjustment and means initial yielding is'nt penalised . More area to move can also create greater momentum to try and sweep , throw or redirect out of area or to the ground.

    My push hands training has covered a range of zones from fixed through to freestyle with an open matt, but lesson learnt was to check the actual size of competition area (although in this case I think the matt just ended up smaller due to other space restrictions within the hall) so as to be able to prepare accordingly.

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