Zen Do Kai? McDojo set up or Martial art?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Hapuka, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    Hi, recently where I live I have been talking to other people about martial arts. I ask what martial art they used to do and they always most of the time say Zen Do Kai. Now what is Zen Do Kai? I did a little bit of study on the martial art and it smells like a Mcdojo set up. In Zen Do Kai they have four colored belts;

    White belt
    Blue belt
    Brown belt and then Black belt

    After that there are 20 different dan belts in this order;

    Prob. 1st Degree (Black)
    Full 1st Degree

    Prob. 2nd Degree
    Full 2nd Degree (Red embroidered writing on Belt. Reading in Chinese on one end "Red Dragon System" the other end reading in Japanese students name)

    Prob. 3rd Degree
    Full 3rd Degree

    Prob. 4th Degree
    Full 4th Degree (Outside of belt half covered in White the other half in Red. Worn with the white upper most. Embroidered writing stays)

    Prob. 5th Degree
    Full 5th Degree (Outside of belt half covered in white the other half in red. Worn with the red uppermost (belt turned around from 4th Dan). Embroidered
    writing stays)

    Prob. 6th Degree (1cm Red stripe centered around outside of belt. Embroidered writing stays)
    Full 6th Degree

    Prob. 7th Degree
    Full 7th Degree (2cm Red stripe centered around outside of Belt. Embroidered writing stays)

    Prob. 8th Degree
    Full 8th Degree (3cm Red stripe centered around outside of Belt. Embroidered writing stays)

    Prob. 9th Degree
    Full 9th Degree (Red Belt with 2cm Black stripe centered around outside of Belt)

    Prob.10th Degree
    Full 10th Degree (Solid Red Belt)

    Zen do kai was invented by this man: Bob Jones , famous in Australia for his so called freestyle martial arts.
    Now does anyone here practice Zen Do Kai or at least use to? I also had a look at there grading requirements and here they are;

    GRADING REQUIREMENTS OUTLINE

    Blue Belt Requirements

    Footwork STAMP - SWITCH - BLITZ
    Stances DRAGON STANCE (DEEP LUNGING)
    HORSE STANCE
    SHOULDER STANCE
    PREPARATION STANCE
    Punches JAB
    CROSS
    HOOK
    Kicks FRONT
    ROUND
    SIDE
    Elbows ROUND LEFT
    ROUND RIGHT
    OVER LEFT
    OVER RIGHT
    Knees ROUND LEFT
    ROUND RIGHT
    Footwork defenses LEFT SIDE STEP
    RIGHT SIDE STEP
    BACK/SIDE STEP/SLIDE
    Hand defenses HIGH DEFLECTION
    CENTER DEFLECTION
    LOW DEFLECTION
    Leg defenses LEFT ROLL CHECK
    RIGHT HIGH CHECK
    CROSS CHECK
    Drills HANDS - LEGS - ELBOWS - KNEES -DEFENCES
    Partner Drills COMBINATIONS WORKING PARTNER
    Grappling STAND UP GRAPPLING
    Iron Horse Form 1st NINE MOVEMENTS
    Self defense APPLICATIONS FROM FIRST FORM
    Sparring 3 ROUNDS TOUCH CONTACT ONLY


    Green Belt Requirements

    Footwork REVISION
    Stances BEAR STANCE
    HALF DRAGON
    CAT STANCE
    WHITE BELT REVISION
    Punches UPPERCUT
    BACK FIST
    PALM HEEL
    WHITE BELT REVISION
    Kicks SPIN BACK
    SPIN HOOK
    CRESCENT
    WHITE BELT REVISION
    Elbows LEFT UPPERCUT
    RIGHT UPPERCUT
    SPINNING
    WHITE BELT REVISION
    Knees STRAIGHT
    TURNING
    WHITE BELT REVISION
    Footwork defenses WHITE BELT REVISION
    Hand defenses WHITE BELT REVISION
    Leg defenses WHITE BELT REVISION
    Drills HANDS - LEGS - ELBOWS - KNEES -DEFENCES
    Partner Drills COMBINATIONS WORKING PARTNER
    Grappling STAND UP GRAPPLING -INCLUDING KNEES
    Iron Horse Form COMPLETE FORM
    Seinchin Form 1st 25 MOVEMENTS
    Self defense APPLICATIONS FROM FIRST FORM
    Sparring 5 ROUNDS TOUCH CONTACT ONLY



    Brown Belt Requirements

    Footwork REVISION
    Stances REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Punches REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Kicks REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Elbows REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Knees REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Footwork defenses REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Hand defenses DOUBLE CIRCLE (MAWASHI)
    REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Leg defenses REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Drills REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL INCLUDING ADVANCED TECHNIQUES
    Partner Drills REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Grappling DONE IN CONJUNCTION WITH GENERAL SPARRING
    Iron Horse Form COMPLETE FORM
    Seinchin Form 1st 36 MOVEMENTS
    Rotating Palms COMPLETE FORM
    Three Battles COMPLETE FORM
    Self defense FROM BACK AND FRONT GRAB, INCLUDING JOINT DISLOCATIONS
    REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Sparring 8 ROUNDS TOUCH CONTACT ONLY



    Black Belt Requirements (Sho Dan Ho)

    Footwork COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Stances COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Punches COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Kicks COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Elbows COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Knees COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Footwork defenses COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Hand defenses COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Leg defenses COMPLETE REVISION ON PREVIOUS REQUIREMENTS
    Drills REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL INCLUDING ADVANCED TECHNIQUES
    Partner Drills REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL INCLUDING ADVANCED TECHNIQUES
    Grappling REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL INCLUDING ADVANCED TECHNIQUES
    IRON HORSE FORM COMPLETE FORM
    Seinchin Form COMPLETE FORM
    Rotating Palms COMPLETE FORM
    Three Battles COMPLETE FORM
    Self Defence FROM BACK AND FRONT GRAB, INCLUDING JOINT DISLOCATIONS
    REVISION ON PREVIOUS MATERIAL
    Sparring 10 ROUNDS TOUCH CONTACT ONLY



    Black Belt Requirements (Full Sho Dan)

    12 Months Experience as Probationary Black Belt (Sho Dan Ho)
    Rotating Palms Form - "Tensho"
    Three Battles Form - "Sanchin"
    Lull Before The Storm Form - Seinchin Form
    Lightning Strikes Twice Form - Saifa Form
    Personal Free Form
    Personal Essay
    250 words or less on Personal thoughts & experiences



    2nd Degree Black Belt

    Working Knowledge of 2nd Degree Training Program
    Nomination by Senior Instructor to Probationary 2nd Degree
    2 Years minimum experience as Full 1st Degree Black Belt
    Eye of the Tornado Form - Sanseru
    Personal Free Form
    4x3 minute Shadow Sparring
    3x3 minute Focus Pad Work
    3x3 minute Kick Shield Work
    3x3 minute Forearm Pad Work
    6x3 minute Sparring



    3rd Degree Black Belt

    Working Knowledge of 3rd Degree Training Program
    Nomination by Senior Instructor to Probationary 3rd Degree
    3 Years minimum experience as 2nd Degree Black Belt
    Lightning Strikes Twice Form - Saifa Form
    Personal Free Form
    Delta - Three man Self defense Application from Saifa Form
    Eye of the Tornado Form - Sanseru
    Delta - Three man Self defense Application from Sanseru Form
    Wrath of the Python Form - Seisan
    Delta - Three man Self defense Application from Seisan Form
    5 minute Audio Cassette Essay



    4th Degree Black Belt

    Nomination by Senior Instructor to Probationary 4th Degree
    4 Years minimum experience as 3rd Degree Black Belt
    Master of Darkness Form - Sishochin
    Personal Free Form
    3 x Personal Weapons Forms (Sword Compulsory)
    Delta - Three man Self defense Application using each weapon




    5th Degree Black Belt

    Nomination by Senior Instructor to Probationary 5th Degree
    Nomination confirmed by Head Of Style
    5 Years minimum experience as 4th Degree Black Belt
    Dragon's Way Form - Seipai
    8 Directions Self defense

    Here are some videos as well;

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LumTEcLnL8]Sparring[/ame]

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zybJkXkAYKY]Patterns[/ame]

    Please post your thoughts and comments.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2007
  2. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    I forgot to add in a poll! Duh. :bang:

    Here we go.

    A: Yes I do Zen Do Kai and I love it!

    B: Used to do it and still want to.....

    C: Never heard of it

    D: I used to do and its a Mcdojo!

    E: Why would I do that Martial art? Mcdojo time!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2007
  3. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    it is very good
     
  4. nzproud

    nzproud Valued Member

    Last edited: Jul 29, 2007
  5. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    There is/was also a Kenpo association in the US named Zen Do Kai.
     
  6. EvilhomerNZ

    EvilhomerNZ Valued Member

    Zen Do Kai

    And the BJC in general...

    What are people's experiences with ZDK and the BJC worldwide..? (Oz etc..)
    Here in NZ it used to be quite savage (many blood gradings etc), like all styles it is slowly becoming more user friendly.

    I would just like to get a grasp on what it's like elsewhere as I see a large amount of slander around (mostly McDojo'ism) about it.
     
  7. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

  8. EvilhomerNZ

    EvilhomerNZ Valued Member

    That's quite different to what i've seen, the belt structure seems quite.. short.

    On the topic of Bob Jones, he's actually a very good martial artist. The 'freestyle' is a label that needs to be applied to any martial art that adopts foreign principles...

    His integration of thai into the syllabus as well as his most recent integration of aikido principles seem to be a worthwhile expansion of his style.

    I think it's like a lot of other styles.. there are offshoots that are (in this case VERY) McDojo'ish yet the core systems seem to maintain the harshness of early training. I know for a fact that quite a few of his early exponents expanded into security and bodyguarding work so there must be at least some validity to the art.
     
  9. greenmoon

    greenmoon New Member

    I definitely wouldn't put Zen Do Kai in as a mcdojo. Most martial artists in Australia would recognize the Bob Jones whether or not he's orthordox is able to create good fighters. Love him or hate him he is recognized in Australia as a pioneer of martial arts in many ways.

    Bob Jones is undoubtably tough and a real fighter, but all of his seniors are tough mofos. In the olds days their training consisted of just beating the hell out of each other and they pretty much ran security for all events in Australia.

    They started branching out into muay thai and have made a fair few recognized title holders including Billy Manne.

    I talked to a guy who is 5th dan with Zen Do Kai and for his grading he had to do 60 rounds in the in ring(kick boxing), with fresh opponents coming at him every 10 rounds.

    If you are really interested in finding out more about him, ask around at the Blitz magazine forum, which is an aussie MA mag.

    There's also a thread on him here:

    Blitz Forum
     
  10. EvilhomerNZ

    EvilhomerNZ Valued Member

    It's a relief to hear that. Thanks for the input. As mentioned I am under the belief that (like all martial arts lately) it's just a matter of a few casting a bad shadow over many.
     
  11. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    I'm confused with the Chinese and Japanese embroidering on the black belts. Why he didn't just make A whole new martial art that has nothing to do with Chinese and Japanese embroidering on belts, gi's or patterns. Why didn't he make an martial art that was 100% unique to Aussie. Very confusing. My impression of Zen Do Kai looks like an attempt at Kyokushin karate mixed in with a couple of moves taken from some Bruce Lees movies. Thats what I have seen anyway from one person that I have sparred against that did Zen Do Kai. Now that is just one person. I need your thoughts. In fact is there anyone here on MAP that does Zen Do Kai?
     
  12. Patrick_baji

    Patrick_baji Valued Member

    one of my hapkido coach's mates from work is a 5th degree black belt in ZDK and I heard he had to do a 30 man kumite for 3rd dan....altho that wasn't in the requirements listed. However my coach says this guy is one tough mofo...
     
  13. Sam

    Sam Absent-ish member

    Zen Do Kai threads merged.
     
  14. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    how often do they grade??
    seems a bit quick to get to black belt
     
  15. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    I'm not actually quite sure. I know someone that did do Zen do kai karate for a while. I'll ask him next time I bump into him.
     
  16. EvilhomerNZ

    EvilhomerNZ Valued Member

    The chinese-japanese thing.. it's a mix of honour and respect for cultures. He's taken elements from many styles and mixed them up and those I believe are there largely as a tributary for some of the styles.

    Realistically it's more of a mix of kyokushin/shotokan (kyokushin is limited by it's sport functionality.. its more like kyokushin with emphasis on real world/security applications) and Muay Thai. There's elements of many other systems in there, like gung fu stuff, grappling stuff and now a recent addition of EPC (aikido principles and techniques). The most basic gist of it is a mix of karate, thai and now aikido with a very large emphasis on striking.

    The BJC seems to be a constantly changing and evolving environment but the general consensus for anyone that's had anything to do with the security members using it is that they are scary scary hard asses, Kyokushin copying bruce lee's wanna be's they are not ;)

    I practice and teach a style very closely based on ZDK, I have never heard of that many dan gradings. Our 2nd dan is 30 full contact rounds and it's no earlier than two years after the first dan grading (of which that is the only 'probationary' belt rank, black belt (probationary first dan) then first dan). Our belt system has a decent progression speed. There is only 6-7 belts but it takes a good four or so years to go from white-black.

    Personally I think it's just a case of how people want to run classes etc, in any system you are going to get those that are doing it for the money instead of love for the art. :rolleyes:
     
  17. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    good point. people need a good view from what are trainees and customers. ;)
     
  18. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    Chinese/Japanese writing only comes in from second Dan onwards a Shodan [1st degree black belt] does not get this honor.... But to sumarise on one side of the belt you have Open Hand Way, on the other side of the belt you have the practitioners name in Japanese writing. While initially Soke dissociated himself from Goju [many valid reasons at the time including the lack of black belt promotions in Australia] at the core we are a a very traditional Okinawan martial arts form and still believe in the principles of fighting the invisible warrior, stance, and kata's such as Sanchin and etc. Since the late 1960's when Zen Do Kai broke away from Goju however there has been a lot of healing and now Tino Ceberano is highly revered amongst most people in the know. Zen Do Kai itself is not McDojo, some of the instructors however are and run there schools as such, but this is a problem with every style.

    As for belts, we have reintroduced a lot of belts in order to regain some sense of logical progression and to slow the process of grading, however this unfortunately does not work in all cases. The belts these days are

    White: White with yellow tips can be earned in class for those who are dedicated to learning
    Yellow: 2nd belt earned at grading but usually in Dojo, for those who do not attain yellow belt, yellow tips can be awarded, if the practitioner is not ready to progress they can be stood down, those who do exceptionally well can be awarded orange tips.
    Orange: As above but with orange/blue tips
    Blue As above but with blue/green tips
    Green as above but with green/brown tips
    Brown as above but with brown/black tips
    Black and then Dans all the way through to full red belt.

    In order to attain a Dan belt one must go through a probationary period before doing a full degree grading and from each Dan the traditional waiting period applies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  19. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    Zen do kai is very popular here in Australia and New Zealand and is one of the largest martial arts organsiations in the country, originally it started out as a freestyle karate martial art with its base in goju ryu hence they do some goju kata but i think its not exactly the same as original goju but not sure.

    soke Bob Jones started the style so his security people could train themselves in an effective art, but he soon branched out to encompass anything that was good from whatever art was around at the time.

    This all fell under the umbrella of the Bob Jones corporation (BJC) and now they have Muay thai, zen do kai, filipino martial arts, aikido and a few more other arts that they practice under the umbrella of Bob Jones Corporation.

    Bob Jones also introduced kick boxing into Australia and then Thai Boxing also producing some excellent fighters along the way and some very tough security dudes as well. Bob Jones is a legend amongst martial artists in Australia and is definetly a pioneer of Aussie martial arts.

    Zen do kai accoding to Bob Jones is suppose to mean "the best of everything in progression" and alot of the zendokai stylist branch out into mma, muay thai FMA etc etc. The zen do kai stylist wear very colorful gis being a mixture of black and red, i think once they get to 4th dan then they wear all white gis.

    As has been said before there is a kenpo zen do kai in America who have nothing to do with the zen do kai in oz, and now there is sometype of japanese zen do kai which again has nothing to do with the BJC zen do kai in oz.

    Here is a web site that explains what the style of Zen Do Kai is all about, the sensei Rob McIntyre is 4th dan Zen Do Kai who has branched out into mma and muay thai as well, crrently running his own gym in Gladstone Queensland.

    Gladstone Martial Arts
    http://www.gladstonemartialarts.com.au/zen_do_kai.php

    Zen Do Kai kata
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4PtXo7Wsxo"]YouTube[/ame]

    Zen Do Kai history
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZUJiJYhj88"]YouTube[/ame]
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  20. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    nevermind
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010

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