Yul Gok and the sine wave

Okay, so Im about 3 weeks from my blue belt grading, running merrily through Yul Gok, really lovely pattern incidentally. And one of the black belts gives me some advice on the back fist application four moves from the end of the pattern.
Seems that you don't apply sine wave to the technique, you leap parallel to the ground and apply it.
Okay, fair enough, Up goes my hand. How do I apply sine wave to that? Good thought, glad your thinking that way. You dont, you leap across, you can apply the sine wave before the move.

Right, heres my issue. I thought Sine wave was for power? If Im applying it before the technique, how does that add power?
Is this gonna be one of those Chi answers I dont like?

As an ex karateka, I always kinda looked at the sine wave theory as kinda bunkum anyway. And it took me ages to get into the habit, and to minimise my hip twist. Sometimes I slip and go way back, usually after a good kick to the head when I think it's still 1992. Something didnt quite work in my head, since if I am applying a straight mid level punch and using sine, I am surely not striking at ninety degrees, but at something like 80, down towards the ground.
now fair enough, if my opponent is standing rigid Im using compression downwards between my fist and the ground. But then If im not striking at 90 degrees to my fist/forearm, I am losing power. A ball bouncing straight up and down transfers all of it's momentum to 180 degrees, changing direction from straight down to striaght up once it strikes the ground. If the same ball bounces at fortyfive degrees to the ground, it only transfers its down momentum to up momentum, but keeps travelling parallel to the ground at the same speed, no? hence only part of it's speed is used to strike. Surely this is the same with a punch/kick.

Don't get me wrong, Im still going to keep the sine wave. Smarter heads than mine have decided that this is stronger, and besides this is the art I have chosen. I just cant help questioning it. It doesnt fit right, wether this is just in my head ( or perhaps my heart, too many years of Karate ) or is actually poor physics, i dont know.

until I receive an effective answer i'll remain questioning and seeking. And not 100% convinced

 

I'll try and dissect what you've said, I'm not too good at explaining theory..

You're having trouble with the jumping backfist in Yul-Gok. The sine wave motion for this technique is starts during the preparation of the jump, not during, not after. The strike begins in mid-air and connects when the front foot touches the ground.

From the reverse punch immediately prior to the jump, the downward motion begins as you bring your arms together in preparation for the backfist. Your hips rotate forward as you bring your rear leg forward, and you begin the strike as you descend, putting your whole body mass, plus gravity behind the attack.

I'm guessing that you understand that from what you say.

Now, there is no mysticality or Chi involvement in the sinewave. Infact, Taekwon-do has no involvement with Ki whatsoever traditionally. The sinewave is purely scientific, using the upward and downward motion of the body during a technique combined with proper hip mechanics and posture to deliver the most force behind a technique.

The sinewave involved with a punch, strike or block is generally performed as follows:

The hands begin to move into the preparatory position (crossed, or non-punching hand out, it all depends) during the downward phase, and should be crossed at the time where your body completes the upward phase. The hips should also be properly rotated at this point in time, so they can roll into the attack during the final downward movement.

During the downward phase, the hip rotation gives the movement lateral force, while the descent places the entire body in motion, and proper mechanics puts the entire body mass behind the technique, be it twisting forward for a punch, or turning the body centrifugally behind a block.

 

Yip, Im with ya with all of that....where I have the problem is where exactly is my sine wave motion in the movement. If I am doing it before the technique then it's incidental surely? and If Im not applying it during this technique, why not? surely if it's good physics, its good physics in any technique.

 

Lithanwif,

How did you get past Dan-Gun without going completely nuts, after all doing an high section punch (punching upward) whilst your body is moving downward seems a strange thing to do. (Well it seemed to me at the time)

Consider this theory; sine wave isn’t about gaining downward momentum so you gain extra speed in your punch. It’s about having a stable platform to punch, kick, strike, block etc. from.

Long low stances have the advantage of stability but lack mobility; shorter stances have the advantage of mobility but lack the stability. General Choi introduced sine wave motion along with the shorter stances during the 80’s to allow greater mobility without compromising too much stability at the point of contact.

How does this work? Stand on a set of bathroom scales (the old type not the digital type) and lower your mass, what you will notice is that for a split second you weight appears to increase, it’s at that moment in time your stability increases, its at the moment you utilise one of the training secrets of Taekwon-do “To bring the movement of eyes, hands, feet and breathe into a single coordinated action.”, it’s at that moment you strike at 90 degrees. The downside to sine wave motion is the upward motion where we are at our least stable, that and the fact that it lasts for only a brief moment.

We tend to over excaudate sine wave motion in our patterns the whole up down motion shouldn’t be any more than an inch.

Of course this could all be rubbish and General Choi may have invented sine wave motion and shortened our stances just so it wouldn’t look like karate.

BTW. General Choi didn’t actually invent sine wave motion; he borrowed/swiped it from Tae Chi.


Respectfully,

 

Cheers John, now that makes more sense.
And your right it did drive me nuts, I could never see where the poewr was supposed to be coming from. Everyone repeating the same old maxim, Sine wave equals power, me saying why and them explaining about force etc.I use hip twist adn always have.
So it's a stability thing...kewl Now I can see it, sitting into the stance to lock it I can kinda imagine, that makes sense rather then punching in a strange sideways S shape.So I can still punch parallel to the ground and hit with a hip twist for added power then huh?
As for the stance thing, I used to do Wado Ryu karate, our stances were about the same as the ones we use in TKD. This was explained to me as a difference in geography. Wado comes from Okinawa, famous for it's uneven ground, so no big wide stances due to this...whereas Shotokan comes from the beachy areas, therefore tends to use wider stances to get a better grounding in the slack soil. Differences obviously speed over power.
I still fight in Necho Aki Dachi ( cat stance )...whats the equivalent in TKD? so that I can look knowledgable?

So therefore as mentioned earlier by Oni-S does this then mean that I sink into the beginning of the jump, leap across ( and up negligably ) then sink back into the cross stance for the strike?

 

Nope hang on, thought about this..are you sure you have your metaphor the right way round?
When I drop weight onto scales, yes the scales tip up a little...after dropping for a second. Then my weight would increase as I push off. I would ( if the movement is exagerrated ) go into freefall ( losing contact with ground and being at my least stable ) then when rising, gain more contact due to g-force ( not the eighties cartoon ).
I gather then I am striking while I have my most contact with the ground during my rising period. I know this is effectively what you were saying, but I think you had your example the wrong way round.

cheers anyway, I know what you meant and it helps, A lot!

now I can leave all of that behind and find a way to work on my flying side kick, I am to used to taking off with the leg not used for kicking and can't seem to get out of the habit.

 

Quick question

Why is it called a "sine wave"?

 

Theory goes that your centre of gravity moves in a sine wave pattern. Remember this from old school math? kids nowadays probably dont know it due to calculators etc....dont know their born....we got an orange for christmas....shoes? shoes? when I was young we didnt have feet...Got up before we went to bed...27 hours down pit...dad Killed us every night...if we were good!

Sorry apparently blinded by the fact that someone else here actually practices GTF. me too for Blue as of 16th Dec. Thank god...not sure if this belt was green or if it's the mould growing on it