youtube taikai 2006 clip

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by maf, Jun 1, 2006.

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  1. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    The video is compliant (the bit about 3 mins in with the punch coming in is just well crap.) It is compliant and the person has all the time in the world to avoid it. People do not punch like this and if you train from attack like that the balance in his stance is sooooo pooooor than he cant do any follow up attacks so its easy pickings.

    Strength is a good thing if you have it and should not be ignored. If you dont have much use what you have with leverage etc. All of the people are not in the feintest bit pressured in these demo's cos there unrealistic attacks.

    Punching the guy on the nose is perfectly usable from almost every other art.

    I thought it was for defending yourself.

    Hard in terms of effort I am talking. All the stuff shown is easy, weak in power, single attack only, unrealistic attack etc etc.

    It seems to be uniformed through the art though - most fall over and if you watch in the background of the vids there are people falling over from next to nothing.

    You say big basic parts you tried to grasp yet you have a 6th que - it should be in place by now I would have though (with respect). You also say how much your taijutsu has changed since the Taikai I feel it should not have changed all that much just tweaked.

    The basics for any art where self defence is key should be close to this (Self defence is a selling point of Ninjutsu :Angel: )

    What is basics?

    Well to me it is this – relying on the basics which is a cop out answer but has many threads of truth. The basics are simply techniques which are applicable in a wide variety of situation like

    Jab
    Cross
    Hook
    Front Kick
    Thai Kick (leg level)
    Clinch work
    Some locks and chokes
    Basic ground work
    Some multiple attacker work
    Non compliant work
    Breakfalls
    Defensive work (smothering attacks etc)
    (Weeding out of poor techniques and why not to use them)
    Some obvious weapon attacks and defences issues etc (BFT, knives)

    All of the above when taught cover balance, timing etc

    As well as softer skills like awareness, understanding of situation and peoples reactions, the law (what to do and not) and verbal control skills etc.

    ------------

    The above are my thoughts - parts are covered in Ninjitsu but with a different focus too often I feel.
     
  2. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Well, to me it seems that you are more against the Bujinkan method, than the video clip per se. I definitely see where you're coming from, and (as I've stressed here before) as a former non-competing boxer I know the values of, say, a good quick jab.

    I thought basics was something one learned and studied for ever? There are so many aspects to a single ichimonji no kamae that 'mastering' that alone would take a long time, especially since the kamae differ from ryu-ha to ryu-ha. New small bits in basic movement can be found with every training session.

    The way I see it, with good taijutsu you can defend yourself.

    This discussion has been done to death already, so there's no use going down the "full resistance" path again...
     
  3. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    It's called LEARNING, Sonshu. If you already know how to do everything and do it perfectly, then why go to a seminar? :bang:

    You would be hard pressed to look as good as Arnaud and Pokorny in that video without 10+ years of GOOD training in the Bujinkan. Sorry, Sonshu. I guarantee if you were to attempt to move as efficiently as these two instructors, we'd be laughing our shoes at your videos. If you care to prove me wrong, go ahead a videotape yourself doing the same techniques and see what people here have to say about whether you "look good when doing that." It's a lot harder than it appears.... :rolleyes:

    That's a "get techniques on people" perspective, and more specifically, "get poor techniques on people" perspective. Bujinkan training focuses on efficiency and the kukan, not strength or leverage.

    Big Will, don't waste your time. Sonshu is of the perspective that these things can be learned in an afternoon, and if you dedicate yourself to perfecting the kihon over years, that you must be doing something wrong. :woo:

    A few of us respectfully differ....

    -ben
     
  4. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Yes I agree...

    The last time I sparred with one of my friends, we had been going at it for about 25 mins and I had spent the morning digging my parents garden...I was exhausted and we were getting ready to stop for the night...in a last attempt to get a good headshot in, I slipped as I went to throw a punch and landed on my hands and knees...to which my friend dropped onto me and put me into a guillotine choke. I can generate alot of strength, so I pushed up and into him as hard as I could and bowled him over backwards so that I landed on him but he still had me in the choke...my head was at a really bad angle I had to stay up on my tippytoaes to try and keep the choke at bay (kind of like a bridge shaped ... god I hope I am explaining this right) It was a really bad position...I had really screwed up with trying to muscle out of it...

    he started laughing, saying I was "F"d and even though we just muck around, I didnt want to tap out...so I dug my thumbs straight into his kidneys and increasing the pressure really fast and started to rotate them as I dug in deeper and deeper. He realeased the choke, swearing and yelping, to get my hands away and that was all I needed to break...even though I copped a really heavyhanded blow to the face for my troubles as I tried to get clear

    Now yes.. a "too d3adly" pressure point had worked...but the problem there was that he wasn't really there with the intent to kill me...had he been, he may have just tried to grit his teeth, bare the pain and just squeeze with all his might. The reality is that in a real situation, regardless of who you are, what style you train or how you train it...this may be the case...

    Anyway...in a nutshell, I have found that some soft spot attacks really work, some don't but just give you some thinking time, and others don't work at all...but you'll never know if you don't try them out.
     
  5. Mongo

    Mongo New Member

    Rubber Tanto, there are guillotine excapes. You don't need to rely on low percentage pain compliance moves when you can use the Kukan as it is found in Grappling arts (BJJ, Judo and subgrappling) and excape the choke with sound technique.

    and R erman, why didn't you just do the excape. BJJ has efficient uses of body control and is not solely dependent upon muscle. If it was, there would never be smaller guys beating larger guys. Open weight tournements would always be dominated by the largest guy (which they are not).

    Rubber Tanto and r erman, you both are being silly. It would be like me going to Hatsumi's class and kicking my training partner in the nuts because I couldn't do the technique right. You two illustrate the gross arrogance of the BJK toward other martial arts without really having too much experience.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2006
  6. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Must work, i bit a guys tit off getting out of a clinch!!!
     
  7. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    Well Si has enough to spare :D :D
     
  8. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Not this time, it was Neil!!!
     
  9. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I do have issue with the Ninjutsu complaince which runs through the art and this can clearly be seen by watching people fall over for no good reason in the background. I have experience this a lot with a small number of arts.

    As I said they are tweaked over long times but the general gist of it should be in place after a year for most people. Ichimonji does not have that much to it in truth its just adding to it over time but the basics of its use are not a long thing to develop and its a main part of the art so ample time will be spent on it. Mastering it well what is that then in any art???- everyone is always learning but the use of it should be gained pretty quickly.

    That is not whats shown on the video though - its complaince and unrealsitic attacks which are easy to defend against.

    At least offering some resitance should be used against realistic attacks - this is not what is shown in the video is more my point.
     
  10. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Never said I did and I did not go I am commenting on the video which is poor as others have said as well.

    I would be hard pressed to look good against a scripted unrealistic attack, er ok I think most people could do it. How about this then Ben I will do it if you will enter into the punching power video show I mentioned which you refused to play ball on. I am 100% behind doing both. The fact is there unrealsitic attacks and doing it against something real will look more scrappy and rushed but hey its real. Doing it from a naff Fudo Ken is easy pickings so come on money where mouth is punching vid and I will do the movement one.

    WHAT NOT ON LEVERAGE - Then you are a muppet as when you aint got strength you can only use leverage otherwise its fight over. If you have strength you should not ignore it but utalise it and add it to technique (this is real world Ben).

    I said I can improve one thing in an afternoon so dont take things out of context and I am sure you wont enter into showing us your Ninja/cyberwarrior skills. Ben the long and the sort of it is you say believe, believe you must believe but offer up no supporting facts to anyone here apart from sensei say and if you do this for unteem years you might be able to defend yourself. Remember Ben I have never said its all crap and you have the option to humour me on the striking thing. Failing that stop trying to make me out to be someone who just comes on here for an arguement.

    I commented on how bad the video was and well in truth if you offered it up to 90% of the non Ninjutsu people they would say it is pretty shocking..... Feel free to if you want.


    -ben[/QUOTE]
     
  11. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    HUH? Let me refresh your memory of this long-ago friction....

    Big Will posted: I see the stuff now and I think how much my taijutsu have changed in this 1½ month since the TaiKai, and I don't feel in any way that what is shown in the video clip is 'poor' or 'bad'.

    You follow by reaming him with the following: If your training has changed that much after one short seminar then you were doing it very wrong to begin with.

    I comment: It's called LEARNING, Sonshu. If you already know how to do everything and do it perfectly, then why go to a seminar? :bang:

    You respond by telling me that you weren't at the seminar and are commenting on the video. :bang: :bang: :bang:

    As I stated in that thread, you cannot calculate the EFFICIENCY of the punch because we will not know what muscles are being employed and at what efficiency. You weigh, what, at least 15 stone, right? If we were to DROP YOU from a two-story building you would do more damage than me, just from your mass.

    As I said, muscle for muscle, mass for mass, I can punch many times more powerfully now than I ever did when I was punching makiwara and bags in my karate days. Why? Because I learned what muscles NOT to use, not to merely throw my entire body into everything.

    Your "video test suggestion" is meaningless. Mine is not.

    You stated that anyone could look good when the opponent was "not resisting" as in the video. I say baloney! If you were to film you doing the same move (and you even HAVE time in the Bujinkan from what I recall), you would not look anything close to Arnaud and Pokorny. Sorry. :rolleyes:

    You will be inefficient because you do not train to become efficient in the same way that we do. It's very simple. Your type of training gives you some things, and takes away others. Our type of training gives us some things, and takes away others.

    You go do your thing and we'll do ours. And you shall be convinced that you could defeat even 50+ year old Dale in a real fight, and I will be placing money that the man twice your age will go home safely. It's a simple as that.

    In the real world based on real physics, in order to resist, one must have a base pressing against something solid (such as a fulcrum on a see-saw or a floor for a wrist lock). If someone denies you that solid thing to press against, there is no resistance. It's a simple as that.

    I'd much rather learn to remove that solid base of resistance where I can apply innumerable techniques, making you a "muppet," than learn to force techniques with leverage and strength.

    This is a fundamental difference between what we do and what you do. Get used to the fact that you do not understand the essence of the Bujinkan movement, despite your training. Put it behind you and move on.

    Good luck, Sonshu.

    May all your choices be good ones....

    -ben
     
  12. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    This is definitely the bottom line in my opinion.
     
  13. r erman

    r erman Valued Member

    I can't speak for rubbertanto as I do not know him or his background, but I think you need to clearly re-read my posts(only two) in this thread or any of my other posts on other threads and see where my stance lies in re: to MMA and resistance-based training methods. Nor can I be exhibiting the 'gross arrogance of the BJK' as I haven't trained in the buj for quite some time.

    I never said bjj was reliant on strength--and I shouldn't really stoop to your level and assume--but, I would wager I've got more substantive grappling/submission experience than you. How old are you? How long have you been doing judo/bjj/sambo/submission? Your response of 'just do the escape' paints you as someone relatively inexperienced...

    Anyway, what I actually said was that a drill for escaping the rear mount and keeping someone from applying a rear naked choke turned into a war when my 'partner' used his strength to apply the choke forcefully, rather than allow me to work the escape--which I had already gotten out of the rear mount, but he still had the shime. We all know that although it would be nice if strength didn't play a factor in martial arts, it does. I saw no reason to not tap as I had spanked this guy before in an actual match and he was simply using a stituation where he had me at a disadvantage to take a cheap shot and stroke his ego. My biting was a reflex reaction, and not a calculated attempt to beat him...as we were not fighting, but training.

    And as I recall, my mentioning this one biting incident was to illustrate that you cannot rely on those things to win a fight...so I don't really understand where you are coming from other than perhaps wanting to wade in on a thread and attack people that you(incorrectly in my case anyway) assume don't train in or respect resistance-based systems...
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2006
  14. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Um..I actually state that while what I did worked in practice worked against my friend in practice, I don't think it would work for me in real life. So I'm not sure why I'm being silly...and by also stating that I don't think it would have worked in real life, I don't think I'm being arrogant.
    Truth is I just didn't know what to do from that position, which I stated earlier...so again where that comes across as arrogance from my part is beyond me Mongo....maybe you just skimmed the post without reading it in full...because looking at R ermans...I kind of get the impression he was trying to say the same thing.

    Apart from that, I was talking about free sparring. just looking at what we could do, not just running through techniques... so the nut-kicking analogy doesn't really apply here.

    No offence dude...but I have shown my respect for other martial arts far more times than most people on this and other forums, including you, so in this case, its you thats coming across as arrogant.
    Nick
     
  15. Mongo

    Mongo New Member

    I am saying that those approaches, pain compliance and biting are not percentage moves, use the established methods that were in place in the classes or training areas you were involved in at the time.

    If the guy cranks on a RNC and you can't excape. Tap. Let the situation start over and remind your partner to take it down a bit so you can work the escape before trying it full out. Its called varied resistance training.

    And Rubber Tanto, why didn't you just tap to the Guillotine? No shame in tapping during training and learning an escape through a drill. Posting retarded comments on pain compliance as workable methods is really only restricting its use to training situations. The affects of adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, being nuts can nullify pain and make the methods that the 2 of you post completely worthless.
     
  16. Mongo

    Mongo New Member

    This is the mentality that I was disuading against. The idea that you both think that grappling is important is great (really head and shoulders above many) but the places you are performing these pain compliance moves (ie class or training) is not appropriate.

    E reman, the pain compliance in real life is fine, it is a good non damaging technique and it is a good form of variable force.
     
  17. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    My answer is simple, I got hot-headed. As I said above, I did a dumb thing and slipped giving him a window to take me down...then I did the wrong thing and gave him alot of leverage. He laughed and the immature little part of me didnt handle that well...The laughing got to me. I know I shouldn't have let that happen. But sometimes you just have to be honest with what you do wrong and that is the bare ugly truth of that situation. And with that frame of mind I used soft spot attack. Adn that was what I was trying to say, that sure it worked but it occured to me after that it wouldn't have had it been real life ...

    I'll still stand behind trying things out...after all, telling me not to goes against your argument to try something to see if it works. Which is one of the arguments that brought me to where my training is today. I just don't have the arrogance to think that if it worked once on one person it will work on everybody.

    I do agree that I should be tapping out on these things with my mates and going over it slower...I must say that my sparring with mates is just that, sparring...but none of us have never really stopped to use that time more as a lesson, where we just look at what went wrong and work through it...I think this is something I will do in the future.
     
  18. r erman

    r erman Valued Member

    Well once again you completely missed the reason I weighed in on this thread in the first place--which is to state exactly what you are trying to say, I think.

    Also you seem to have missed this:

    Have you ever read Animal Day by Geoff Thompson? Have you ever done any adrenal stress scenario training like that done by Tony Blauer or Peyton Quinn? These are normally the 'under-duress' type environments that I have explored 'dirty tricks' and I have drawn the conclusion that under the onset of adrenaline they are not high percentage tactics-- again, kinda seems like what I've said from the get go... :bang:

    The bjj seminar was a definite aberration from what is normally done. I just can't seem to get you to understand my training partner, at that point, wasn't wanting to cooperate or vary his intensity--I might add that we had been drilling that exercise for quite a while, and had made several partner rotations(with each new partner the resistance started light and built up based on the skillset of the person we were working with), he was the only one I had a problem with, and, I was the only one whom he seemed to think my head was a pimple needing popped...once again :bang:

    I also, a few pages back, told of a real situation where a dirty trick did what I needed to get out from under someone on a small and crowded porch where a normal upa, escalator, or elbow escape wasn't possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2006
  19. Koyoku

    Koyoku I enjoy pudding!

    When looking at the Ed part it is sad... Even from a Bujinkan perspective, never did he take balance, control space anything.. He just grabed the guys hand and tried to do as he said a "gyaku"...

    I guess it depends on where you come from. My early back ground was all JKD and fillipino arts more than anything else, that was from like 1980 onward. I guess what enters you mind at a young age tends to influence you for life.

    Maybe people not privy to such a background would benifit from the following video clip. (graphic photos at the end be prepared)

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853&q=paul+vunak

    yeah, that stuff Ed was doing would work just fine... Wow...

    Sorry if I am coming off mean sounding, but I get worked up when people teach stuff to people that will get them killed. It's almost criminal...
     
  20. SilentNightfall

    SilentNightfall Eien no Ninja

    I think the point where Ed just took the hand was actually just to show a point about leverage. In all my time doing knife work with Papa-san, he has never shown something where he just took the hand and then pressed it against himself. Again, I know for a fact that this was incomplete footage. If you attack Papa-san with a knife, you literally get swallowed up almost instantly and become unable to move or resist. I'm not claiming that Papa-san would never get cut, as he has told us that it is always the case that it can and probably will happen, but a non-lethal cut in order to immobilize the attacker is definitely worth it in my honest opinion.

    I really suggest that those criticizing Papa-san's portion of the clip take the advice from those who know him and have posted here that the footage is just bad and very much incomplete. It would not end up looking like that if you went full speed with a training knife at Papa-san at all.
     
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