Youtube - Sword in the face - Ouch!

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    That ain't gonna fly. I do two types of post cranky and humorous. I am simply too funny to just do humorous.
    My name is Britten and am as British as tea and tiffin.

    The Bear.


    MOD Louie
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2008
  2. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Amazing. You know what they say, if you play with fire then expect to get stabbed in the face.
  3. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member

    Disagreeing with others is neither complaining or trolling. Making cheap comments about a person or an organization is trolling. Reviving old rumors based on lies is trolling. Mocking someone because they disagree is trolling.

    All the best,
  4. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Ok what the hell was that! :eek:

    I'm going off to have a sit down and a stiff drink! :cry:
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Dude the mods have spoken, so no point flogging this dead horse. You not going to win any converts.

    The Bear.
  6. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member


    The following was written in a friendly manner while not wearing "Cranky Pants". It is just a friendly response and an attempt to bring better understanding of what we do and why. Also note that I do not speak for ARMA or any of its members. The following is just my opinion.

    No, leaving out select actions for the sake of safety does not discredit all other actions.

    ARMA recognizes the importance of training in the techniques performed from a bind (winding, zucken, etc.) and our members spend a lot of time training in those techniques. ARMA has drills that specifically teach how to feel and apply blade pressure in a bind and how to react to slight changes in that pressure. However, ARMA's view (as best that I understand it) is that combat with European longsword revolves around fast powerful cuts. In most cases a bind is the result of a successful defense against such a cut. While recognizing that it is completely valid to seek a bind in order to work off of it, ARMA scholars do disgree with interpretations that are focused almost exclusively upon establishing binds rather than actually cutting. Such interpretations are always associated with weak short cuts and have been found by ARMA members to be totally unimpressive in sparring.

    In ARMA we make a clear distinction between sparring and freeplay. Sparring is all out and full speed, but always with control. Sparring is usually conducted with padded swords or plastic wasters but more senior member might use steel blunts or wooden wasters. Since all of the body is a valid target in sparring fensing masks are always used. Freeplay is conducted at 1/2 or 3/4 speed and is conducted with steel blunts, wooden wasters, and plastic wasters. In the majority of cases fensing masks are used during freeplay. Rarely have I engaged in freeplay without a masks. Even in our drills we often wear masks, especially if the technique being drill involves a thrust or results in a hit to the head (such as the Zorn-to-Zorn counter). In regard to specifically when John Clements does or does not use a mask that is a question that only he can answer.
  7. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Ran

    Thanks for your reply!

  8. Angelus

    Angelus Waiting for summer :D

    Ow hope the guy is ok.
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    ALWAYS .... that's a pretty sweeping statement there Ran. Are you sure?

    [ame=""]Fechten mit dem langen Schwert - YouTube[/ame]

    These cuts look neither weak nor short and yet they seem to be working alot from the bind. What's your view on this?

    The Bear.
  10. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Well, they're certainly not full power, and some are pulled short for safety, and they're sometimes a little out of range for the same reason.

    What I think Ran is getting at (and correct me if I'm wrong, Ran) is that the main goal is to cut the guy. Best case scenario, he stands there and does nothing and gets killed. Next best case he makes a bad defense and you change through and hit him. Next best case he fails at defending and is hit regardless of his attempt to bind. If he defends correctly and gets a decent bind, you work from the bind and hit him (with winden, duplieren, zucken or whatever) on the second try.

    Best regards,

  11. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member


    This video received good reviews within ARMA. The goal of the video appears to have been to demonstate the wide range of techniques possible with a European longsword, so yes it does includes many techniques from the bind. This group appears to make good use of powerful cuts made with good reach. Note at position 22 in the video the man on the left is holding Vom Tag with his sword OVER this shoulder rather than in front of it. The people who make weak short cuts are those who hold their sword in front of their chest in what I call "Lazy Vom Tag". Now look at position 24, if this was not a demonstration the man on the right could have easily hit his adversary with his counter Zornhau. Since he did not, his point is now right in front of the adversary's face, a follow up thrust would only have to travel inches and the winding would be very tight. Also note the range from which the cuts were made and that this was an edge-into-flat action. I like everything I'm seeing. Now compare all of this to the video below showing the same technique. Note the shorter range, the weak cuts from Lazy Vom Tag, the edge-on-edge blade action, and the paths of the blades (no real attempt to cut is made until the zucken).

    Please note that I am not attempting to take a cheap short at the people in the second video. I'm just making an objective observation in support of my position.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    There are two kinds of sparring (at least). One is where you play and experiment. You take your low-percentage moves and work on making them high-percentage or you take your one (two or three) weakest techniques and practice making them stronger. This is anything but conservative sparring. You know that a lot of what you do will fail and that you'll get hit a lot. Then there's the other kind of sparring. The one where you try your darndest to not get skewered or cut open while you try your best to get your techniques home. The play tends to be VERY conservative. In this version, you're playing as if it were a "real" fight and your life depends on it. If one opponent is sufficiently better than the other, he may play the first while his opponent plays the second.

    Peace favor your sword,
  13. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    So what proof do you have that initiating a cut from the so called "lazy" vom Tag is weaker than the higher version favored by ARMA? And it seems to me that shorter range shown in Christian's video is most likely due the lack of available space in the chosen location to film the technique. I know that I for one can initiate a cut from the so called "lazy" vom Tag and cut just as far and as powerfully as I can from a higher vom Tag.
  14. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I agree with Ran that you (usually) go for the cut rather than the bind, but often you end up in the bind (if both parties are doing the same thing, or if the other guy is going for the bind rather than going for a cut)

    That is (still IM subjective HO), why the bind given such a prominent place in german (and and fiore manuals).

    We try to do submission-wresteling full speed, full contact (without hard punches, only light punches without protection) and applying german/Fiore wresteling-techniques, and most of the time we end up looking for holds, openings for punches, and oppertuneties for doing throws. That doesn't look very much like in the pictures, but when we do find openings for keys/throws, etc, THEN it starts looking like in the manuals.
    So I don't find it strange that the drawers drawing the techniques haven't bothered to spend ink, time and precious paper on drawing people fumbling about, searching for openings, and I guess the same is the case for the fencing-sections :)
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Ran,
    Yeah I am with you on this one. It is lazy and there is no intent and the range is too close. I don't have a problem with edge to edge blocking but even the Zucken was lack lusture. I believe Zucken should be an explosive action. It's not a good example.

    Edit: the guy on the left is doing the worst tell-tale by dipping his sword back before cutting, nasty.

    The Bear.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2008
  16. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member

    We have proved it to ourselves by cutting from both positions and by watching others cut (video and in person).

    No, they always fight from the shorter range. I see this in the videos different groups have posted on the internet and I seen this in person at the 2006 WMAW event. At the WMAW event I watched a sparring match in which an ex-ARMA member dominate another person who was using the Lazy Vom Tab and short weak cuts. The ex-ARMA member simply cut from a greater range as the other person was attempting to get within range. Eight hits on the head and the other guy still couldn't figure out what was happening.

    I'm sorry but I have to believe there is a difference in how we perform cuts.
  17. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I've used both Vom Tags, and I agree that the "lazy" VT produces weaker cuts. It does for me, anyway. The advantage of resting the blade on the shoulder is that it minimizes telegraphing. I don't favour it personally, but I still experiment with it on occaision.

    Ran, do you have any clips of the two VTs in test cutting so we can compare them directly?

    Best regards,

    Last edited: Jan 16, 2008
  18. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Perhaps some one would like to explain exactly how much force should be used in a fight with live swords without armor so as to result in the imediate incapacitation of your foe. I think that more than enough force is generated without needing to hold the sword up over your head or shoulder. Granted I dont beleive that resting your sword on your shoulder is the best idea as it can make you too relaxed.
  19. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member


    That is always an unknow amount. How much force do you need to put into a punch when fighting a man who broke into your house to rape and kill your wife and kids? Would you attempt to use a minimum amount of force? I think not. In a life & death situation someone making a real effort to defend themself and their family is going to use a much force as possible while still maintaining control. I think the same applied for the people of the past who had to defend themselves with swords.

    The issue is really not about "cutting as hard as you can". It about cutting in a matter that allows all of your cuts to have a large amount of force without you having to cut as hard you can and allowing you to keep good control. When people cut from Lazy Vom Tag they usually do so by pulling their pomel down while pushing out with their right hand. The hilt is leveraged, but the blade does not build up a lot of speed, basically the tip of the blade is just thrown out. In a proper cut from Vom Tag over the shoulder the hilt is pushed out as you start making a passing step, as your arms extend and right before your foot lands you pull back hard on the pomel giving the hilt a powerful torque, this powerful torgue greatly increases the speed of the blade. This makes for a very powerful cut, not a slice, at the cost of suprizingly little effort.

    An important feature of cutting as described above is that just as the blade impacts the target the blade is traveling at its max speed and you are passing through longpoint with your arms extended at shoulder level. Thus you also have close to your maximum reach, which allows you to start fighting at a greater distance. Another benefit is that since the blade is moving fast your follow through can take you back to Vom Tag on the opposite side very quickly, allowing you to perform quick combinations of cuts. As a test try making performing a quick combination of a Right Zorn and Left Zorn from Lazy Vom Tag, then try the same combination from Vom Tag over the shoulder.

    All the best,
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    I think a point can be made that a lot of force isn't always needed in order to generate a massive amount of trauma with a blade. I can sever limbs with a Saber or Broadsword one handed from a moulinet without having to use a huge step and I can take off a hand with a snap-cut (similar to how the "lazy" von tag is performed). And then there's the thrust.

    I doubt that ANYONE will deny that a lot more power is generated from a passing step cut. However, a case may be made that sometimes you don't really need that much power to accomplish your goal.

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