Do what?! Supposedly?! Whatever. It sure looks like Kelsoe was awarded the rank of 4th Dan in the Bujinkan. Please tell me you are not setting up the famous 'he is not a real ninja' defense because he is a goofball and his student couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.
I don't feel like rehashing this again... feel free to do a search on some of my old posts where I breakdown the Bujinkan in a nutshell. Rank means nothing in the Bujinkan. There are no "real ninja" other than Hatsumi Sensei. And I definitely am not defending anything.
1bad65 wrote: "As to the weapons and multiples training. I know you can't use real weapons, I'm not an idiot. But do these place train alive with the rubber knives? Do they really do alive training with multiple attackers? Or is it alot of pre-planned assaults? I've never even seen training vids of a place training alive vs multiples. It's always the 'one at a time, one hit and you are KOd' Hollywood style attacks used." To be honest most of the Bujinkan training I have seen in regards to multiples and hidden weapons has been pretty canned (choreographed) ... "Ok, now you attack and then I move here and then you decide to attack." I think it is important to train these things in an "alive" (unchoreographed) fashion in order for the training to be functional. For knife drills I prefer metal (dulled) knives although if I knew I was going to have to fight unarmed against a knife-wielding madman next week I'd probably work with a real knife (carefully) as there is no substitute. Jeff
I've experienced Sannin Dori(catching 3?) prior to studying in the Bujinkan when I was in the Navy. Out to sea you get really bored so you think of fun things to do. In our berthing we had weekly "fight night" and eventually got bored with one on one so we tried two on one. What I noticed is that for the most part it was one at a time as noone wanted to be the one that messed it up for both of them and they didn't want to accidentally hit eachother. Also the most effective method of handling it seemed to be positioning to the outside of an attack when one came as to have put your attacker in his partner's way, sort of forces the "one at a time". Arnaud Cousergue has a Sannin Dori section in one of his vids(Advanced Juppo Sessho I think) The way he described it is that you have 2 brains, thinking they have 4 arms and legs, and since they're not psychic what they actually have is 2 brains, with similar but different intentions, with 2 arms and legs which require a certain amount of space to maintain their own balance. So when they come together it just gets messy. What I've seen in the Bujinkan is very similar and you may be right that we may only be slight better at handling that situation but my personal goal is to be familiar enough with what my "options" feel and look like that if I were in that situation, hopefully I'll be able to recognize an option and have the ability to capitalize on it. That's really all it is. Increasing my percentage chance of survival. The more I've experienced, the more I've made at least a small preparation for. Does that mean that I think I can definitely handle a multiple attack scenario if one reared it's ugly head? No, but I hope that by having had a taste of it that my chances increase.
I didn't get all of that, probably just missed it but it confirms he is a prime tube steak. Going near someone's mum is beyond the pale in anyone stable's opinion.
A great clip to look at mass attacks (thanks seattletcj) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_GVOpGs5ZI&mode=related&search"]Atienza Kali guys in the Mass Attack Exercise - YouTube[/ame] you can imagine these attacks against you with or without weapons. Ask yourself how your training would deal with it.
Every vid or demo I have seen where one guy beats multiples or an armed man is the same as you said. I really do want to see it done alive, even just in training.
The only ones that MAY have worked are where the victim himself was armed. The ones from ~2:00 to ~2:30 were jokes. They had the 'one touch=incapacitation' and the '3 Stooges' style attacks I mentioned before. The one where the victim lightly flicks his own knife and it stalls that attacker right until the others are defeated is downright ridiculous. From that clip I would STILL say a gun and some situational awareness would go alot further to protect you than any MA training. I'm curious what Jeff (Bigred) thinks about it too. He seems open minded and level headed.
I think you're absolutely right but I think you're missing a couple of steps there. Firstly that there's a difference between "learning" and "training". I never refer to practicing and learning combat as "training"(and I probably won't until godan), I have no aspirations for the UFC. I simply have an interest in hand to hand combat, so in order to begin something as complex as fighting more than one opponent you really have to "learn" what your options are and how to capitalize on them in scripted fashion otherwise if you "amp it up" before you've begun to internalize those options you really won't "learn" much. Now, once you've begun to internalize some options you have something to "play" with and can then go unscripted and higher speed, elevated intent, etc... And that's where "training" begins. Until that point, you're "learning". I think it is important to learn these things in a "non-alive" (choreographed) fashion in order for the teachings to be internalized.
I'm talking about the attacks in this video, not the defence. The problem with the second half of this clip is that the attackers suddenly tone it down. But the attacks in the first half are very realistic IMO
We agree there. As I said, having situational awareness and a gun is your best option. I honestly feel if you get jumped like the first half attack, MA or no MA you are in trouble if you cannot escape.
How long a period of time do you recommend learning them before you can use them in an alive fashion? A rough estimate of course; hours? or days? or months? Just a rough estimate.
Fair enough, and well said. How about this.... What do you feel are the limitations in your training? I see many limitations in my BJJ classes when it comes to developing realistic self defense skills. I see my classmates taking people into their closed guard, for example, with no thought whatsoever to whether or not the person is pulling a knife with their free hand or going for a nut shot. The rules of engagement simply don't require the BJJ practitioner to consider those things. I see MMA classmates (I don't train MMA, but it is trained in the same gym) always starting off their sparring sessions from a one on one, facing each other position. This to me fails to develop their instincts for starting off in positions of disadvantage, or to develop their situational awareness. They focus intently on their one opponent, and don't think of the lurker who is about to pick up a stick and get involved. Just to be clear, I don't consider any of the Gracie In Action, or for that matter UFC fights, completely indicative of true street altercations (except maybe Rickson's beach fight). Anytime you know the fight is one on one, won't involve weapons, incorporates time limits, and has rules (albeit few in the "good ol' days") you have already moved far away from the street. You are passionate about your training, and obviously feel it prepares you well for street self defense. While you have been offensive at times in this thread, you have also debated well in others. I have stated in the past where I feel the BJK falls short (lack of alive training in some dojos). Let us now turn the spotlight on your training, and please share from your experiences where you feel your training falls short. I look forward to your thoughts. Cheers, James
How long? I don't know. I suppose it all depends on the student, though I personally believe you could begin to get there after a solid day of focusing on a few strategies with people who really know how to properly uke. I mention the uke because if the uke isn't critical enough of his own actions, you end up pawing through awkward, unrealistic attacks and you end up wasting your time. Though little by little, keeping the same strategic themes maybe after a week, and by week I mean 5 days of training, not consecutive days, after a week I would think you'd be ready to amp it up and see what happens.(though I would call that "testing" and still not necessarily "training")
Kyu ranks have the kanji for certificate, Dan ranks have the kanji for license. Menkyo does not mean certificate.
James, thanks for being civil. I'll return the favor. I won't quote your post, with my reply it may get too big. Here goes: I admit it does not prepare me for weapons or multiples, as I've said before. If you use the closed guard and someone goes for your nuts they are begging to be triangled. If the school you watch do MMA ALWAYS starts facing off, IMO that's not good. We start in bad positions in BJJ and MMA at times. Like start off mounted, turtled, down while your opponent is up, etc. I 100% agree if you always start facing off, your defence when in bad positions will suffer. To me, I do realize the GIA tapes and UFC are not real street encounters. The big thing I came away with was seeing the small, unathletic looking Gracies beat the larger guys so easily. I had never seen ANY other MA do that in a real fight (even under sport rules I admit). My cousin took TKD as a kid and I would go to his class when I was spending time at his house. They did do sparring, and not point sparring. But unless a much smaller guy was alot more experienced, the bigger guys would often still win. In BJJ you can see some guys dominate a guy with alot of weight advantage after just a few months. That is why I went into BJJ/MMA once I found a good gym as an adult. I'm a little below avg for a guy I think, 5'7 165. So BJJ is best for me IMO.
I so wish there was. One of the guys who was there for Kelsoe's visit to the wrong BJJ gym is a friend of mine. He still can't tell the story without laughing. He really was in full ninja attire. And he had a black fanny pack and black velcro shoes on as well.
That was mentioned as well. It is NOT confirmed. It was also mentioned that there were rumors he was a felon. I am making no accusations, just repeating what was discussed. People did post he carries the fanny pack everywhere he goes, not just when he is dressed in his ninja attire.
