Your sensei's view on new kata made by yourself

Discussion in 'Karate' started by tanpopo, Mar 27, 2011.

  1. tanpopo

    tanpopo New Member

    My sensei is very traditional so I feel I must tread lightly when approaching him at times. Our style seldom incorporates elbow strikes into practice -- though they do appear a few times in a couple kata. Therefore, in order to make up for this dearth of elbow strikes so that I would have practice with them I decided to make a kata rich in elbow strikes. I had practiced it over and over until I felt comfortable that it looked nice and was practical.

    I know enough not to just go to the dojo and say, "Hey, look sensei at this elbow kata I made." So at the end of class I asked him if he had ever made a kata of his own. The answer to that would be my answer if I could ask him for his advice on strengths and weaknesses of my own or his suggestions for improvement on it.

    Well, to say the least, he just about had a cow at the mere thought of making one's own kata, let alone asking him if he had ever done so. Sacrilege!

    Without letting on that I had made one I gently eased us into a discussion of how certain styles of karate came to even have kata at all. Obviously they had to be made by someone and put forth for inclusion into the style at some point in time, right? And most probably not all decided in one fell swoop. I do not want to go into the casual debate we ended up having, but I could see that he was flustered by the initial question and also the logic that was brought up during the course of the discussion. His final point of defense boiled down to "no new kata are to be made by students of this style because it would dilute the identity and tradition of the style since the student is the vehicle for perpetuating the style into the future. The new kata would contaminate the purity of the style."

    What are your thoughts on this? Your thoughts on his final point of defense? And your sensei's thoughts on creating new kata (not to be added to the canon of your style's kata, but to address points of attacking or defending that may seem underemployed in your style). It'd be nice to hear from you other instructors, sensei/owner of your own schools, too.
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    how delightfully imperialist-japanese. if you want to make a kata for your own use, separate from your style, even if it's just a single combination repeated in many directions, there is no one stopping you from doing so, although its value to your training will vary greatly depending on how experienced you are with kata and their practice. just make sure he doesn't find out (and if he does, what's he gonna do, call the karate police to erase your memory of the new form?).

    also his views on what a student is are pretty lame and non-sensical. an instructor is a vehicle for perpetuating the style. a student only learns and trains.
     
  3. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Preserving the moves by rote and throwing away the explorative practice required to come to understand movement personally is probably the farthest thing from preserving the original spirit of any given martial art.
    I never understand those that cling to form as if THAT's the thing that set the originals aside from everyone else.
     
  4. tanpopo

    tanpopo New Member

    Man, I am not coming here to bad-mouth my sensei or the style I am learning, and I do feel a need to be careful about my identity because some students from his branch dojos spaning a couple continents could maybe ID me which could lead to embarrassment at best and banishment from the dojo at worse. But I do kinda feel disloyal (which I mentioned before) for questioning him and the style at times here in such a public setting. I kinda feel like that baby angel smoking a cigarette on the cover of that old Van Halen Album.

    But thanks for the input thus far, I will reply to a few things you guys said shortly.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    By the time you're black belt, I personally think you should be required to make your own kata, including the bunkai for it.

    Kata is part of the visible part of karate. But as in an iceberg, the visible part is only about 10% (the part above water) when you reach into black belt, the rest being supplemental training, cross-training, etc. making up the other 90%.

    However, this is my opinion based on what I was told by my first karate instructor, Chinen Sensei.

    In all, I suggest not being disrespectful and pushing the issue. Give your Sensei time to think about things. In the mean time, since I've throughout the last 10 years started making my own kata too and each time I file it away and start a new one. Almost all the kata I make have nothing to do with kata, it is the bunkai I enjoy and they help me sort through what works and what doesn't. I've probably worked through dozens of variations from someone grabbing me from behind and found the one technique I liked the best and put that into a kata. The thing is that they all share common principles and fundamentals, so I wanted to pick the one that I felt demonstrated these principles and fundamentals the best, but in reality any of them could work.

    Oh sorry, I digress and started talking about me :confused:

    Basically, I suggest not pushing the issue and actually concentrate on the bunkai for your elbow strikes. In this way you can work on application without the risk of sounding like it is a kata. Then when you develop your kata at some point, take the bunkai and apply it to multiple attackers. Now you have a kata. More or less. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  6. Wotonito

    Wotonito Valued Member

    o_o That sounds like a pretty good additional requirement... It'd help plenty of martial arts evolve...
     
  7. liero

    liero Valued Member

    When I did karate...one requirement of black belt test was to
    perform own kata and bunkai for it.

    I liked that concept
     
  8. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    Making up your own kata can help you gain a deeper understanding of what goes into the katas you already learn. We've used kata-making as an exercise in classes before now, dividing the class into groups of 4ish and giving them 20-30 mins to devise their own (short!) kata. Each group then has to perform their kata in front of the rest of the class, and then describe the kata bunkai for the whole kata (incentive to make the kata REALLY short but never mind!). They then answer questions posed by instructors and other students on the kata.


    I can't see the problem in doing this. The katas the students produce don't become part of the syllabus and are really more like extended combinations, but it gives students the chance to think for themselves about what situation a given technique or combination would be effective for. Brain work......
     
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Er how do you create kata without any real life testing?

    As I understand it kata, even in Karate, are a systemized methods of recording combatively effective methods. They have a logically progressive structure and build on one another.

    They teach responses to likely scenarios, develop muscle memory, work on angles and even targeting.

    How do you develop a kata without it having real field testing or development, especially considering that any development would need to be applicable to the environment the skills it develops are used in.

    If it's not something culturally applicable i.e. modern self defence then aren't you just rehashing something that has already been done and rehashing it bereft of the original context in which it was developed?


    Sorry for the long post just interested. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    This. If you've "seldom incorporated elbow strikes into practice," do you really feel you're able to design a kata to teach their practical application?

    MItch
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sometimes you can only make kata based on what you currently know. It is in making kata that you find out new things. Kata in karate should never change, however, your personal kata is ever changing.

    There are forms for many purposes. 8-directional punches, Sanchin, etc. that do not have bunkai. A form that was just all the kinds of elbows one knows could be made into a line drill or a two person set.

    However, if the form is based on practical application, then you have to start with the bunkai, IME.
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'd suggest that you already have lots of useful elbow strikes in your normal Karate practice - you're just not familiar enough with their application to see them.

    Take a closer look at Shuto Uke and Gedan Barai. Change the range and see the elbow strikes. :)
     
  13. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Funakoshi thought they should change, if memory serves. :)

    I would argue that in studying kata properly you find out new things.

    Mitch
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    By new I didn't mean new to the world, I meant new to me personally in that I get a better understanding of it.
     
  15. tanpopo

    tanpopo New Member

    Definitely. He'd have a second cow.

    errr... ban me?

    funny.

    Trying to not have thoughts like this, but he seems to be making it hard for me not to. Though I am grateful that some of his quirks keep me from putting him on a pedestal. I've always thought it strange that some martial arts students look at their sensei in awe (no, not confusing "respect" with "awe" -- that I feel is a different topic discussion, though).
     
  16. Wotonito

    Wotonito Valued Member

    Well, I just think quite a few students see their teachers as creatures that aren't exactly "people", like, when I see a teacher, I see a "person" that could be just as stupid as I am, even more stupid, or maybe smarter, while people that see teachers as "teacher" "master" or whatever, see someone that is just smarter, to the point that they just accept whatever they say even if its stupid... You know? (The opposite is likely true as well, with some teachers seeing students as just stupid students that know nothing)
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well that true. Gedan barai has a few different elbows in it. One of my favorite is a downward elbow that puts an armbar on the opponent application.
     
  18. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    Analects 1:8. Confucius said, "If the superior man is not grave, he will not inspire awe, and his learning will not be on a firm foundation. Hold loyalty and faithfulness to be fundamental. Have no friends who are not as good as yourself. When you have made mistakes, don't be afraid to correct them."
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Not strictly true. Many Karate kata are stand alone combative systems in their own right (if i understand the thinking of people like Iain Abernethy correctly).
    They don't build on each other as they were often created independantly, at different times, by different people and only come together under one system in "modern" karate. They were never designed to be building block "1 of 10" (for example).
    There are exceptions such as the Pinan/Heian series (which do progress and build but were largely pulled from the larger and stand alone kata Kushanku [I think]) and the early Goju kata as outlined in Gavin Mullholland's "Four shades of black".
     
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Cheers for that.

    Have to admit I was thinking too much with my Koryu head :D

    I did have the Pinan/Heian series to mind as well, I'm just an interested outsider. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011

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