Your Religion (if any)

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Master J, Apr 27, 2004.

  1. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Now I wish I could actually "thank" the posts in this thread. There would be so many I'd thank though I'd probably get RSI.

    As for me personally, I'm quite happy as an agnostic.
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Agnostics are the worst!

    You're just trying to be condescending to everyone! :p
     
  3. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Ha!

    What can I say? I just want to have my cake and eat it. :D
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well, you're not borrowing my spoon!
     
  5. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    No need, I always come prepared with a spork. :p
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    :D

    The spork is truly the cutlery of agnostics.
     
  7. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    What about the Cambodian monks who won't help little girls that have been raped by pedophiles because they believe that they deserve to be punished? This kind of thing goes on today. What about the Zen monks who used Buddhism as a call to war during ww2?

    Where is the compassion and drive for clarity in these instances?

    There is some good that comes out of religion? Sure. It'd be dumb to argue otherwise. But I don't think it is worth all the bad that comes out it.
     
  8. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    Cake is an illusion.
    But it's a fattening illusion.

    Don't listen to David.
    It's all about the spoon.

    I think.
     
  9. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    religion and the fear of retribution

    I do not know enough about Buddhism to act as an apologist for it.
    Perhaps Dean will step in. I just cannot imagine the Dalai Lama saying something so crass. And while Zen monks may have acted out of misplaced patriotism, in order to judge the truth of something it is more honest to look at the best examples of that thing, than the worst.
    The same in martial arts, and we have seen many discussions on these pages when people have said:
    KM, TKD, Karate, Marbo, KSW, or whatever, is rubbish and examining the problem you just realise that we were considering at a bad example of that discipline OR that from an outside perspective we do not really understand the principle of what we are viewing.

    Look at how dreadful truly atheistic societies were under people like - Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, or Hitler, who though not strictly an atheist, did not recognise the authority of any established religion (and who's destructive impulses were by far surpassed by the others). Political regimes, wars and conflicts caused by those people in the last century killed more people than all the religious persecutions since history began. - Besides, religious wars, as far as I can see tend to really be about territory.

    At least religion tells those who pervert the tenets that there will be retribution - in monotheism in a final judgement, in the esoteric religions, by continued suffering, rebirth, etc.
    Whether you believe in this Eye-in-the-Sky or not, if others have power and they do not believe that there will be an account to pay, there is no holding back whatever dreadful impulse they have - and they end up in conflict with those around them.
    NB. I do not say that this is why religion is good. It is always better to work towards beauty than away from horror.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Give the Catholic church machine guns, tanks, poison gas and a modern infrastructure and the Cathars, Protestants, Muslims and anyone else they didn't like would have been wiped out years ago.
    Nominally atheistic regimes (which the Nazis absolutely weren't) killed lots of people because they happened in the modern era not because they were atheistic in nature.
    And let's not forget that Yahweh flooded the whole planet and killed almost every living thing on it just because some of those living things weren't living in quite the right way. That beats anything Stalin achieved.
     
  11. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    As I said, look at the good 1st. You will always find examples of the bad to justify rejecting an idea, but that is shallow.
    To judge Christianity look at Christ's message, or Buddha's for Buddhism, or Marx's for Marxism, for that matter. And then consider the authenticity of an ideas proponents against those tenets.
    If atheism were or non-estabishment ideas if God (the NAZIS) were inherently better they would not have wrought such carnage. Atheism and secularism also have their perversions.
     
  12. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    But when I say, to judge an idea look at the source of the idea, not at its perversions, I mean, get someone who understands the idea to explain it, and give it a fair hearing. Your comments on the Flood show that Biblical studies are no more your field than Buddhism is mine.
     
  13. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    So we are just supposed to ignore the atrocities because the same people(Or people associated with them) do some good? I can't accept that. If you want to judge the truth of something you can't just look at the good. You have to look at the good and the bad.

    Hitler was a roman catholic if I am correct. The idea that Germany was an atheistic society during ww2 as far as I know is false.

    As for the others, this is a common argument made by Christians who fail to understand that you simply cannot go from not believing in god(s) to killing in no one's name. Atheism is just about not believing in the supernatural without evidence. Anything else is something that has been tacked on by another belief.

    Have ever killed anyone for the sole purpose of not believing in Thor?

    But where it gets dangerous is when people start to think that they are acting righteous in their deeds no matter what those deeds may be. As I mentioned before, there are monks in Cambodia that think that the pedophiles are being righteous by punishing those little children for something that they have done in a previous life. It's sickening. Religion can be used to justify almost anything.

    Many religions also tell you that you can just repent and you'll be forgiven. You could commit genocide and all you have to do apologize or meditate and promise to not do it again. Where is the retribution there?

    I'd rather do good things for there own sake (or simply because they make me feel good) rather than out of fear. Moreover do you honestly thing that you would commit horrible acts if you didn't have religion?

    I concur however I don't think that the horrors should be ignored or they'll just keep happening.
     
  14. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Are there true Scotsmen? ;)

    PAS's reference is right from the Bible. Old Testament. You can't really get much more closer to the source material than that. It's a story about genocide, but it's okay because god did it and it wiped away all the heathens. Like I said before, if people believe it's God's work then even something like genocide can be righteous and moral.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It was a tongue in cheek comment really. We all know the global flood never happened and the Noah story is not to be taken literally but there are certainly christians that will point out the immorality of "atheist" regimes in the 20th century while full accepting that their supposedly loving god did far worse (if you believe it actually happened...which it didn't).

    Actually you bringing up Mao, Stalin, Pot etc is interesting.
    Because personally I think those regimes highlight what is wrong with religion rather than atheism.
    They are essentially personality cults where god was replaced with a god-like individual. Same sort of fear and reverence. Same misplaced sense of false certainty. I think they serve as a warning not to revere anything too much.

    And in the case of Nazism being "atheist"...there aren't many atheist armies that send their troops into battle wearing "God is with us" on their belt buckles.
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Sorry missed all this.

    I listened to the Dali Llama the other day commenting on that with Buddhism you haven't seen the same community focused drive as you do in something like Christianity.

    He said there was a need to do more community work such as starting schools and what not.

    I say this as an example of his thoughts on the need to do more, to be better.

    As for the bad stuff? Hmm well people are scumbags in all walks of life, it happens but it doesn't make it right.

    One thing to keep in mind is that like many things Buddhism has been shaped by the various cultures where it has taken root, so naturally certain attitudes may have caused bias and generally well let's say undesirable behaviour.

    Overall for me I like the teachings of Buddha, they make sense and the encouragement for critical enquiry speaks to me but I'm certainly not going to defend the type of behaviour that WhitePanda has mentioned but I do think it needs to be examined in context.

    I honestly don't know anything about the Cambodian monks who do that so a bit more information would be appreciated?

    What is their reasoning behind placing the blame the way they do?


    Btw I'm a very new Buddhist. :)
     
  17. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Their reasoning is that kids must have had done something horrible in a previous life time to deserve what is happening to them now. I am getting most of this from a good friend of mine that used to do charity work with rape victims down in Cambodia. He told me the monks did not want to help because this is what they believed. They told him that the pedo's were doing divine work.

    This isn't a phenomenon that is limited to Buddhism. You could compare to Pat Robertson talking about God hitting Haiti with disasters because they're obviously Heathens and made a pact with the devil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Well like I said I'm new to this but that's not very Buddhist, imo, it sounds very twisted.

    What sect was this?
     
  19. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I am actually not sure about that. Theravada probably?
     
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Remi, i think you misunderstand atheism.

    I hate when people view atheism as a collective - there is no central governing body or defined practice other than non-belief.

    each religion has defined practices and beliefs. therefore even though the regimes you mentioned (Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao) were atheistic by default, they were only representative of the individual leaders/powerfuls practices which formed from communism (marxism). therefore these regimes were not reflective of atheistic states but communist/marxist ones.

    religion - your life and philosophy is decided with input from the divine and the organisation that spreads his word.
    atheism - your life and philosophy is decided by you, the individual. therefore each individual differs in practice and philosophy.

    saying this. im not an atheist but i certainly tip closer to that end of the scale with deities that are very limited.
     

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