your perception of Ilmu in Silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Raden-Rahmat, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    this is just a point of discussion i thought of as i wanted to discover what pesilats thought about this. Ive come accross many who percieve ot in a negative light. Though i accept the fact that there are negative elements around and this might have negative implications but this does not weaken the positive camp...more like a smear campaign.

    if i think of schools like Gayung Fatani and Silat Wali Songo, ive been told they have the influence of ilmu. Now this has religious rulings as well as tribal rulings to it. Has anyone had experience in this field, exposure to it or have you studied it and then turned away...then tell us what your reasons for turning away was if any.

    Please lets make this as broad as possible as id like to keep it open all the way to discover all avenues since in South Africa we have limited access to information and the web serves as the centre of attraction.

    Bear in mind i ask these questions from an islamic point of view and just as a your religious and non religious views will be welcome...its a learning curve
  2. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

    I want to contribut to this discussion. Unfortunately, I am confused by them term Ilmu, which in Malaysia, generally just means knowledge. I don't know if it has an Indonesian context that is lost on many young Malaysian pesilat (myself included).

    Would you define it for me? Shukran jazilan wa marhaban.

    Salam persilatan,
  3. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    1% truth 99% junk

    If it’s practical and it works then keep it, if its superstition and impractical then dump it.
    I believe silat in its early days was more practical/scientific but the Sufi tradition introduced lots of techniques which are not so useful in real fights. Saying a spell into your open palm before you strike someone would be an example of Sufi influence in Silat. I guess it’s a matter of personal choice and if you feel stronger for doing it then its ok but I don’t think techniques like that actually work.
  4. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    Kaaf Haa Yaa Aayn Sawd!

    I assume that Narrue's statement refers to the silat ilmu batin,which has calls on the jinn to assist. The true sufi wil teach you that the magicians who use jinn in silat are nothing but creating a false impression of supernatural power. On the other hand,i do believe in ilmu batin in its true sense. That ilmu is something an experienced teacher can relay to you,and its base is Yaqin(total faith in the effect). My final comment would be a question. "who is more dangerous? The keris or its owner?"
  5. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    its called essence of existence

    Narrue, your perception comes from more illegal sources. Sufi influence does not deal with irregularities or inadequacies in any way, it always keeps alive the teachings the Prophet (upon whom be everlasting peace) has taught and shown in certain circumstances. the issue of "blowing in the palm" is a mere example and is not limited to a story telling situation. The blowing is preceded by an ayat or thikr taught either by your teacher or by a sufi guide. How superficial is it when it is proven?

    genie influence is the more shady side of things...this im not intending to discuss cos im talking of ilmu referrign to ilmu batin in relation to the good clean side of things
  6. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    the keris or the keris wielder???

    depends hey, if he is running amok then its your call to challenge him...but if in a sane situation the i gues the skilled pesilat/pendekar is the point of your well as his keris
  7. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    another spanner

    just another spanner like i said, how does the spiritual aspect actually affect your attack method? look, you are blowing into your hand or onto your actually does it become physically detrimental? just asking cos i know that we are essentially spiritual elements of the cosmos and spiritual matter to us would obviously relate to our existence...but i cant really understand how it actually works. whether people use the genie or the sufi chain....anyone ever been explained this???
  8. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    My following post is from Kitab ut Tawhid,by Sh.Ahmad Hendricks of the Alawiy Zawiyah, walmer estate, Cape Town.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  9. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    Salam, this discussion would lead to the topic of Tawheed,which is the knowledge of Allah the Most High, His attributes, the qualities of prophethood, the Prophets themselves and other important guiding principles of Islam. But there is a type of Tawheed called Tawheed Khas,as agreed by the Ahlu Sunnah. This refers to the station of the spiritual traveller,who after years of practising the methodology of tasawuf,realises the doctrines of Tawheed Aam,which for him becomes a living reality. This according to Imam Ghazali is in fact a degree of arrival. OK, all that said,let me explain. In tawheed, we learn that there are 3 types of judgement, or Ahkaam,sing.HUKM. Hukm shar'iy(derived from Divine law), Hukm Aadiy(derived from the repetitive experience of natural phenomenon), Hukm Aqliy(derived from reason or rational judgement). The hukm of the reality of Ilmu Batin would in fact include all three types of Ahkaam to get to an answer,but in my small understanding,i would like to ellaborate on the Hukm Aadiy/the judgement derived from repetitive experience of Natural Phenomenon. This deals with CAUSES and EFFECTS. The Ahlu sunnah hold the opinion that "causes" do not produce "effects" by their own nature. Allah the Most High, according to them,produces the effect once the cause has been activated. In our example,the burning sensation felt when fire is brought near to the skin is created by Allah the Most High. In Surah al Mu'minoon, Allah says "Allah is your Lord. There is no God except Him, Creator of all things.." ok, all things according to Ash'arite thinking includes both causes and effects. I would think thats the answer to Radin's question. So have we reached Tawheed Khas? Have we "arrived"?
  10. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    Im Definitely Not Anywhere Lol

    if the question is have we arrived...really im not even aware where ive been!!!

    interesting to know that these thing scan be justified even though it seems it cannot be, referring to logical deduction mainly...not everything is logical but true as said and proved by Kertas that there is divine proof.

    The issue of the the types ahkaam, im now convinced the Rifa'i Shaikh, Shaikh Ahmad Kabeer has experience of this and eh was bringing this to the worlds stage that this can be proven in reality too through debus...obviously this is jeopardised by the false ppl in the name of real debus.

    we must however remember that is does exist and that it was proven and still can be and i would like to state that Shaikh Ahmad Kabeer Ar'rifa'i is someone whom we could regard at that "station of arrival"...
  11. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Actually what I meant was simply that I personally believe in some ilmu but not all, some is true but most is not, just my thoughts on that.

    I believe Silat was in Indonesia long before Islam came to Indonesia, actually I believe Silat was in Indonesia before the prophet was even borne. I am confused then when people talk about the prophet and Silat. It is my belief that Silat was already complete in all its aspects (including the ilmu knowledge) before Islam even set foot in Indonesia, You can see from my point of view silat has nothing to do with the prophet or Islam but pre-dates it....again just my thoughts.

    Back to topic, real ilmu is Scientific (not religious) and works on a scientific basis.
  12. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    Grape juice, anyone?

    True that it is scientific. In the same breath, we can say that the Quran teaches the scientists the things they could not suck out of their thumb. In fact,the Prophet has fed us from his blessed thumb. Nobody claims that silat is entirely an islamic martial art. But what we say is that islam has refined all branches of knowlegde. That is a broad statement i know,but it can be qualified. I percieve Ilmu batin to be of different types. The type which consists of spiritual elements is the one that Radin is referring to. What i have stated in my post above in no way suggests that islam or the prophet came before silat. Your perception of a complete ilmu would remain your perception. In other words, the cup you drink from could contain orange juice. While we are sipping spring water. If i dont know of your complete ilmu,i zip my lips. We always learn from each other. Forgive me if it seems i have offended anyone. My comments are directed at the comments. Thanx for reading.
  13. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    I was hoping to avoid this, but sometimes it just can't be helped. Here in abbreviated form is one of my standard rants.

    Science and Revealed Religion

    Christianity is incompatible with science.
    So is Judaism.
    So is Islam.
    So are Zoroastrianism, Krishna Consciousness, Osiris Mystery Cults, Mitrhaism, and Pastafarian worship of the Flying Spaghetti Monster even if an afterlife with beer volcanoes and a stripper factory sounds like a good deal.

    Revealed religions are all based on undebatable undeniable Truths. There might be arguments about interpretation and how they translate into the real world, but after a certain point you may not question.

    We can argue about whether the Faithful are promised supernatural sexual companions with eternally regenerating virginity or white grapes - a current matter of recent lively debate among some Muslim scholars. The Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox discuss (often at swords point) what precisely happens to water and wine when the guy with the black suit and turned-around collar lifts them up. Do they become the literal Body and Blood of the Incarnated Deity or is it a symbol of the Divine Presence? Jews can and do spend years debating the precise significance of a single obscure passage in the commentaries on the Oral Torah with reference to Kabbalistic numerology and whether it means that a certain custom is an actual commandment or a matter of personal choice.

    But it all comes down to the same thing. There comes a point where you must surrender your reason, stop your inquiries and ultimately "comply or die". In the Abrahamic religions it's a Sacred text - Torah, Gospels or Quran - combined with the pronouncements of someone who has been given Divine Authority to pass judgment on these matters whether it be a Prophet (pbut), the Pope or the Sanhedrin. By definition what they say is True. Anything that contradicts them is False.

    Science takes that notion and tosses it into the tree chipper, abandons the notion that it possesses Ultimate Truth, and settles for asking dangerously inconvenient questions chiefly "What do you claim to know?", "How do you know it?", "How can we test it?" and "If it doesn't hold up how can you explain that part of the world that you claimed to understand?" There is no question which can not in principle be asked. And there is no theory or model which must be preserved.

    The word "dangerous" isn't at all random. It represents a radical rejection of the basis of any revealed religion.

    A revealed religion assumes the conclusion and explains the observed world in terms of what it assumes to be true. If they disagree, then the observations must be in error. They must be rejected or re-explained in terms that do not deny what we have been told to believe.

    Science takes the data and the explanation and bashes them together. If the explanation breaks on the rocks of an inconvenient world it is allowed to sink, and a new one is built. If it is supported by observation and particularly if it can predict things which have not yet been observed it is retained. Sooner or later it will be prove inadequate and will be abandoned, modified or incorporated into into a later explanation.

    In a revealed religion things are proved by their adherence to the Divinely provided Authority. Does it contradict Quran? Is there an appropriate Sunnah? Are there reliable Hadith on the subject?

    In science things are disproven all the time. But they are never finally proven. The best you get is that since a huge mass of robust evidence supports a claim you can rely on it unless a really significant inconvenient set of facts comes along. If Stephen Hawking says something about cosmology or physics is true you listen respectfully and give his opinion a lot of weight because he has a long track record of getting things right and doing careful brilliant work. But he's perfectly capable of being mistaken and has been so many times.

    A scientist would say "What the Sacred Text or this prophet says may turn out to be true. But it is not necessarily true. And it is certainly possible for it to be false. Examine each claim. Find a way of testing it without circular logic, solipsism or appeal to any of the usual logical fallacies. The test must be capable of showing that they are in error."

    This attitude is absolute poison to the revelatory way of looking at the world. The Prophets are correct because they are Prophets. The Book (whichever book) is true because it is the Book and is therefore true by definition.

    When one attempts to merge science and religion it leads to bad science and bad religion.

    If scientific inquiry is limited by what the Torah or Quran dictates it ceases to be science. The essential radical honesty and willingness to accept what is rather than what one wishes to be true is immediately snuffed out.

    If religion takes the results of science and bolsters its own claims through those results it ends in disaster. When scientific understanding changes the theologians either have to change their undeniable truths or have the distasteful job of handwaving and backfilling as their evidence disappears.

    So Kertas, I fear you have missed the point entirely.

    The Quran doesn't matter, and the Prophets(pbut) do not matter because an appeal to their authority is the antithesis of science and what it stands for.

    Muslims may certainly be scientists. I personally know a number of very devout men and women who are superb ones. But they do not base their science on the Book or the Sunnah or the Hadith because that mode of understanding is not appropriate to answering questions about the nature and behavior of the physical world. And they do not reject conclusions because they come from non-believers. The good ones welcome them because they recognize that it may reveal assumptions and blind spots their own work.
  14. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Eloquent rant Tellner...but is a Pastafarian a dreadlocked Italian because I think I know him?:)
  15. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    Tellner, you are correct in some assumptions, scientifically speaking. The Quran however does not and has NEVER restricted scientific enquiry. On the contrary,it encourages use of the intellect and reason. Even your mind is a created entity of your existence. What islam says to scientists is this "go ahead and be as inquisitive as you feel. the universes and whatever it contains has seen and unseen elements. When are you going to create the like of what has been created without the help of an already existing creation? The Quran is the word of the Creator,whether you deny it or not. Your intellect is a mercy to dont be arrogant." the muslim scientists you know may not have enough knowledge of the Quran or Hadith to be able to display its truth and compatibility with science. The Quran doesnt deny scientific findings,it only denys the thought that leads to non-belief in a Supreme Diety. It rejects athiesm, polythiesm, darwinism and the likes of it. Any action or reaction has a consequence right? If i murder, and found guilty, i would end up in jail. Scientists do not know the unseen. Ask any indonesian silat teacher,he would tell you that there exist something called a genie/jinn. Have you spoken to one? They live and die, eat and sleep, procreate and subscribe to beliefs or non-belief. They are created from a smokeless fire,and they are also created by a Supreme Unity, God. That was just an example. All things, as explained in my previous post are created by Him. Deny His existence, then you'll end up in jail. Worst of all, there is possibility of No bail!
  16. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    There is a beautiful website the author of the many articles and books on that site has indeed displayed the approach that Islam and its revealed Quran treats modern science with.

    for now, i feel that Tellner's post did not answer Radin's question. I will leave the Christians and jews to defend their Scriptures/ religions.

  17. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    LOL! :)
  18. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    The Matter, and the Matter that matters. It doesnt matter.. or does it?

    Hey Hormat all...

    i would like to say that although the debate or question by the thread starter has opened up religious or philosophical debate, and scientific too, in no way are the religious connotations,discussion or aspects involved in the evolution of Silat meant to suppose that all silat are exclusively Islamic.

    We speak in context of the questions posed, and by expounding on certain aspects of a certain Silat doctrine, philosophy and ethics should only be meant to educate or share in terms of knowledge or experiance.

    debate is welcomed, and everyone has their own views of the world and its existence, science, politics, religion etc.. But lets focus on the question asked, and not go about religious debate.

    If your silat has no religious aspect to it, then mine has. Silat is Silat. its martial application is lethal and could be affirmed long before Islam has entered the malay Archipelago, or Nusantara.

    Tellner, i salute you as a pesilat.

    regards once again:topic:
  19. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Likewise that is your perception but since we are talking about Silat I guess you are saying that Islamification of Silat has improved it as a martial art? If we were to completely Christianise western boxing would it improve it?
    When you talk about the Ilmu batin I must admit I don’t know what the Ilmu consists of but the Science and knowledge of Choondu Varma and Noku varma have been around for thousands of years.

    Yes I know, Orange juice is not as pure as spring water. It would be better if you could clarify what Ilmu batin actually was then we could get a better picture of what we are talking about.
  20. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member


    Most definitely, the knowledge which Islam has brought has most definitely removed elements of superstition that were present in "some" silat. They were present in silat most probably due to The Superstitious beliefs which we havee too inherited some of, prevelant in Indonesia pre-islamic days.

    Ever heard of Genie in a bottle? Many silats who claim to have purely Scientific explanations to their supernatural effects. I have witnessed a few silat practitioners who claim this, but merely just playing with Jinn and magic.

    Having said that, i only speak of my experience. This topic always falls into the "secrecy" category for its own reason.

    Has anyone else learnt a silat with these elements? The Silat (i wish not to say the name of) which i have learnt only teaches breathing technique. After passing some levels, you are able to break ice, and metal pipes with your bear hands. Some higher graded students can even stop your movement just by having a look at you!

    I witnessed very strange practices like rolling your body in wet sand and being washed off by some "spiritual water" all in the name of martial science.

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