you tube'd some vids

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by middleway, Oct 23, 2006.

  1. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Don't matter why they have a knife, if they show you the knife first, its just a threat, give em the wallet. If they want to stab you, for vengeance or what ever, you will probably not be aware of a knife until after the fact.

    Yet its a good assumption.

    Need some clarifcation here:

    Murder attempt? Really? How seriousely did he/sho want to kill her?
    Did she use a complex sert of knife defence moves to disable the attacker, or was she luckily just still alive after the attempt had ended?
  2. Sroberts

    Sroberts Valued Member

    Give away your wallet at the threat of violence as a's an interesting thought :)

    Have you had a bad experiance with being mugged?

  3. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    If I was actually you Liokault, I think I'd attack myself with a knife... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) lol
    Really what is the point...??
    :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2006
  4. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    You just keep on keeping on in your little martial art fantasy :cry:
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    And you in yours ;)
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Yes, I live in a martial arts fantasy where I cannot be taught how to handle a determined knifeman, your is the fantasy where the people you teach are not put in danger by your misguided trash.
  7. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    This is interesting.

    Ok, you have a guy in front you you. He has a knife and is asking you for your wallet. For some undefined reason, you cannot run.

    Why would you fight him rather than give the wallet?
  8. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    I think that the issue is, Liokault is less likely to come across a violent person than Taiji_Butterfly is. Oxford has a lower rate of violent crime against another person compared to medway over the same period.

    Jan - March 2005
    Oxford - 755 reported violent attacks
    Medway - 1053 reported violent attacks

    Oxfords population - 142,364
    Medways population - 251,123

    Offences per 1000 persons in Oxford - 5.3
    Offences per 1000 persons in Medway - 4.2

    Source -

    So, in theory, Liokault has less of a reason to train knife defence, as he is less likely to be attacked.

    James :)
  9. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    I would tend to disagree. If someone shows you a knife when they rob you, it's not just a threat. They do it so that you fear them before they cut/stab you. It gives them a sense of power and increases the thrill for them, when their victim begs not to be hurt, then they do it anyway, even if they have the wallet/phone/jewellry.

    I think it's you who is living in the fantasy, where criminals don't want to hurt people unless you've done something to get on the wrong side of them and deserve their revenge before hand.

  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Giving up your wallet instead of risking your life is not a bad plan. I don't have a problem with this as a basic guideline... but for each person it is an individual decision, hopefully they make the right one for their sake.

    liokault, there have been some studies that suggest fairly convincingly that in most attacks with a knife even when the knife is shown first, the victim (defender) does not recognize there is a knife involved. They might think they are being punched instead, only later to realize there was weapon involved. You probably are aware of some of these studies. One I believe is from Darren Laur:

    So the first lesson is that it is a good idea to always assume the attacker has a weapon and respond and train accordingly.

    The point about training here is that it isn't always as simple as fight or don't fight. Training weapon defenses is many times going to be for the situation after you have been already attacked and are fighting for your life. Something like 30% of knife attacks end up fatal, one of the reasons for this is that an attacker will stab multiple times. Your training is in protecting yourself from getting repeatedly stabbed (which equates to protecting yourself from being hit multiple times since you may not realize a weapon is involved until later).

    Training, having the mental attitude, and having experience in stopping from getting hit multiple times is a big part of knife defense.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2006
  11. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Every thing I have read or seen statistically suggest that your wrong.

    I think it's you who is living in the fantasy, where criminals are stalking you with a knife intent on murder and taking cash after the fact. Indeed, your high level of Martial Art proficiency is keeping them at bay and is making the world safer for all of us :bang:
  12. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I have read a few of DL's studies over on KubfFuOnline, years ago.

    Its ok saying that mental attitude etc, but when I see a stand alone knife defence, I see no real address to the reality of a knife attack.

    And when I see that only 3 of 85 police officers saw the knife (one that was not hidden) I doubt if any MA hobbyist will do better.
  13. WVNicholson

    WVNicholson Valued Member

    There is a major debate about the knife defence related clips so commenting about the other vids may be off topic for where this thread is heading... But anyway what is the beng chuan clip supposed to be demonstrating. (I think beng chuan is one of the basic techniques/ punches of five elements hsing-i - or maybe that's completely wrong - I haven't done much hsing-i. And I haven't practiced any IMA in a long time.) In the clip the shaven-headed guy (Alex?) appears to attempt to strike the other guy and then sort of bounces off. This looks like some sort of internal martial art weirdness?

  14. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    people in glass houses part 254...

    statistics, speculation, yadda, yadda.... hmmm...
    ....all I know is that defending against an armed attacker is part of most genuine martial arts ime. As a martial artist I practise that on occasion. I also know that in any fight I could die or be seriously hurt...
    One thing I do know for sure tho - death is a part of all lives.
    Choosing only to fight under circumstances where you know you can win is bad training and a definite sign of a fragile ego imo - just to clarify, I will avoid any fight I can, especially one involving a weapon. Last time I was threatened with one I walked away with my hands raised. The guy never asked for anything, he just wanted to show how tough he was to his mates.
    I find your naive view of knives and their use in modern times deeply worrying, I really hope you never get to find out how wrong you are.
    Btw at the last two IMA meets we've done systema knife work, but you haven't come along to question any of it in person, have you? Why is that, I wonder?
    Oh and speaking of fantasy MAs btw, isn't calling your school wudang in honour of a legendary and most probably fictitious ancestor and his alleged school when your art actually doesn't come from there at all just a tad erm imaginative shall we say....?
    dude :bang: seriously :bang: lol
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  15. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    In the Beng quan clip, as the bald guy steps in to strike, he eats a punch to the ribs that stops him in his tracks.
  16. bodhistate

    bodhistate New Member

    I actually read through many of these posts before putting something up myself, and here are some observations:

    Those arguing there is no point learning SD against a weapon seem to miss the point. It is better to have a little (in this case, practice) than nothing (no prep whatsoever). It's like saying there's no point in saving a dollar a day because after 30 days it won't add up to $100. The person who saved will have $30 more than the person who didn't save since they wouldn't have $100. $30>$0. Some training is better than none.

    The argument that people don't use knives the way they were used in the past. Umm, do people today not use knives to cut/stab/kill/maim/dismember/terrorize/intimidate/etc? I feel like I'm missing some assumption about the past and the present. Someone shows you a knife when mugging you, maybe they just mean to intimidate, maybe they mean to kill you, who knows. Can your response affect the outcome? Sure it can. I would assume that they intend to kill me if I don't do what they say, and take steps to avoid death. Maybe that means handing over my wallet, or fighting for my life, or screaming like a banshee and running away. Who knows? Doing role play and running scenarios gives you a heads up for your options. Studies have shown that people who do this (in the case of airplane crashes that don't kill everyone on impact) are more likely to survive than the people who don't run scenarios. It's impossible to imagine all of them, so debating the variables is an endless, unwinnable conversation.

    And finally, why is it that when evidence is presented that demonstrates one side, the other side just ignores it or tries to discredit it? Yes karate (or tai-chi, TKD, BJJ, boxing, talking) can help defend against a knife wielding opponent. Yes an MA master can also get slashed up and/or killed. Both stories are true. Both sides have valid points. Why not take the information of both and apply it to your training and benefit from both sides?
  17. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    But but but!!! In the tough Medway town where you live, thugs only show you the knife to terrorise you before cutting you up and gloating to the soft lamentation of your women?

    One of us think we can fight a knife, one doesn’t....who’s naive?

    Met a few systema guys at a Bullshido throwdown a while back (not sure as I’m bad with names but one may have been RobP?). Despite going easy, and being well aware of the knife and when I was going to hit, they couldn’t stop me stabbing them with a comedy knife, in such a way that I think they would have died.

    Where as, calling your "Tai Chi (?)" 'Butter Fly' is very appropriate, as you have flitted around from seminar to seminar, style to style with out settling.....did you consider 'Pik and MiX' as a name?
  18. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    the guy coming in is a student and friend of mine.

    He comes in for a grab ... i use a palm strike with beng power and down him before he gets in.

    no Wierdness ... listen to the clip with the sound on.


  19. Angelus

    Angelus Waiting for summer :D

    ok man say something that actually means something.... i told you a true story... i've seen pics of the guy. He entered these duels twice and lived. I think if you search up on these duels you will find that they do happen to this day. The world is much bigger than you... just because you dont know about something doesnt mean it does not exit. Then again if im wrong then you have nothing left to learn and we should all just bow down and worship you.
    You keep badmouthing other styles (i.e. shotokan) but you dont give anything to support what you are saying. Proove to me shotokan doesnt work and proove to me that your tai chi would fare and better than shotokan in real life situations. Then we would actually be making progress. Ive seen plenty of shotokan demos and tournaments and there are some great fighters there. Ive also seen alot of tai chi and baqua demos and found hightly skilled fighters. I also practise tai chi -not officially - and there are parts of tai chi that i disagree with. That doesnt meant its not effective, just that i dont think certain techniques will work for me.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  20. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Just to clarify and to take the sensible advice a kind soul pmed to me about this old, old issue.... :rolleyes:

    I go to seminars to learn new ideas and because I have an open mind, I then practise/adapt/incorporate those ideas into my training - if you actually think that's a problem I suggest you need to broaden your horizons more.
    I learnt my main body of skills through spending ten years with my original teachers. I then followed up by crosstraining in ninjutsu and with other MAists from various disciplines. My main training remains after 20 years: Yang style Taijiquan. I simply like to explore alternative applications and methods, that's all...
    I called my school "Butterfly" for two main reasons: first, in honour of my teacher, who always wore a butterfly brooch and second because butterflies represent transformation, which is what my lessons are all about. I attempt to teach people to think for themselves, not to blindly ape my own opinions and beliefs.
    I do not 'believe' I can defend against any armed attacker (that is your emotive projection onto me) - but I do train to have a fighting chance whereas you have simply blindly adopted the beliefs of your teacher and accepted those beliefs as 'reality'. You have simply given up. Your choice.

    Of course I would run from any fight if I could. Of course I'd just give my wallet up if that was the option. BUT what if neither one is an option? What then? Personally I'll fight like hell, probably get stabbed or cut, but I will fight. You, in the same situation will die - with that smug know-it-all expression on your face melting into what is commonly known as a "gobsmacked" expression - all because you were too blinkered to train against knives.
    Anyway. Quite apart from whether knife training is useful against real knife attacks, it is useful to train focus and timing anyway. But you wouldn't know that, because you don't bother, you just spend time criticising everyone else over stuff that you don't actually practice yourself.
    What a reasonable person you are... :rolleyes:

    Finally as you've ignored this point, let me state this:
    Unlike the "wudang" school, I do not pretend to have links to mystical temples in China I've never been to.
    I have yet to visit China. I will be visiting Singapore this xmas, and hopefully doing some Taiji there, but I won't claim my Taiji to be Singaporean when I return as I am not the fantasist you think I am :cool:
    As far as I can tell from interviews with DD that were published back in the eighties, your school is called Wudang to give it kudos and as a kind of challenge to the more orthodox styles of Taiji. I have always felt this to be an ego-driven fantasy and not in the spirit of Taijiquan at all, regardless of how effective the art has turned out be in combat.
    Your hostile approach to people on here is simply a karmic reflection of an initial misguided and (imo) bad cause.
    But as you reject such ideas generally I won't expect you to understand that.
    TBH I blame your teachers completely for producing ambassadors of their art like yourself and so I will no longer bother addressing anything with you - you cannot truly be blamed for the foolishness of your inherited opinions.
    I bow and wish you peace and healing as always
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006

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