You should all be ashamed

I've read and reread the post by Ghost hands again and again and each time I wonder whether that post about others being ashamed has actually had any positive effect. Especialy when he states that all should be ashamed about bashing Mr Hayes and then goes on to talk about how bad his products are.

However i think I know what he is trying to say and it is this which I will try to explain by using my own analogy in my second interest of magic.

Basically I do not like David Blaine in that I do not like what he does as i do not think it really relates to magic. I do not particularly like the role that he plays, or how he plays it. And I would never buy a David Blaine tape of his stuff as it really does not appeal to me.

However having said that i can still respect the guy for what he does and has done, after all some of his stunts take great courage and endurance, and maybe if it wasn't for him we would probably not have the interest in magic that we have today. And I would not dream of going on to a magic forum and trying to dish the dirt on Mr Blaine, or saying his stuff is bad.

Now I think Ghost Hands was trying to say a similar thing with Mr Hayes.In that what Mr Hayes is teaching may not be for every one, including him, however like Mr Blaine there should be some respect as Mr Hayes was a path finder, and without him we may not be practicing the art today.

And to be honest guys looking at the last few posts you should be ashamed. You often talkabout how the To-Shin Do guys attack the Bujinkan, but we have never resorted to cheap remarks like this and just shows the kind of people that frequent these forums, in opposition to Mr Hayes.

Gary Arthur

 

Sorry Gary, i was trying to turn it into another joke thread before yet again hayes gets a steaming pile dumped on him again........

carry on!!!

 

But if someone was not acting as an honourable person and has misled people about his past actions and achievements, then should that not be the subject of conversation?

There is a sticky at the top of this forum with some links about the importance of paper and lineage. One of the links ends with this,

Steve has lied about a lot of things. He is not a person of integrity. Should we remain silent about those aspects and not warn students about what they are getting into?

Yeah, he did help start the ninja boom. But when he sold books and such like that, he did so for his own profit. I bought his books, he got his cut and as far as I am concerned I do not owe him anything more than I do any other author and filmaker. I owe loyalty to Soke because I hope he has my best interest in mind above that of a merchant who sells me stuff.

Most of us would not be typing out what we are if it was not for Bill Gates. Should we ignore every sin he may commit? How about those of us are Christians and think that we now have the chance to get into heaven? Should we be silent about priests that bugger their choir boys?

And if someone is of a moral charecter to lie as much as Steve has, is that not a good enough reason to avoid him or tell others what they might be getting into?

 

Speaking for myself, being one of the old guys who actually bought his books way back when they actually came out, I can say undoubtedly that SKH brought the art to me. I read his books closer than anything they put in front of me at school. (Frankly, I think they were better written.) There's no doubt that part of it was that his books were pretty much all we had to read about the art. I've never met Mr. Hayes, and as a former Judan, I'm quite sure his Taijutsu is very, very good. His books came out in the pre-internet days, and I think (generally) people who don't remember that era have difficulty seeing how profoundly the internet changed the world. During that time, there were two sources of info: books and people. Back then, the number of people in the art was astoundingly low. Additionally, compared to other "Ninja" authors (Ashida Kim and others), his books provided an extremely legitimate perspective on our art.

So, for me, the emotion I feel regarding SKH is not one of anger, but rather one of sadness for the choices he made, and had every right to make.

In retrospect, however, I do see places where he misled both the purchasers of his books (is Israel non-Western?) and people with whom he interacted (preventing travelling to Japan). It tinges my view of him strongly.

 

Grimjack posted

and

and

But this is all your personal opinion. Not one thing have you proved in all this anti Hayes bashing.

Now I don't want to go round in circles yet again as its all been on here before.

But really a person is innocent until proven guilty and you have never proved that guilt. In fact if this was a court of law the whole case would have been thrown out through lack of evidence. All you ever provide is rumour from a person that dare not even provide their real name. So you can sit there, say what you want without any fear of reprisals. Even Grimjack if you are proved wrong, you can walk away without egg on your face, as few people know who you are.

You continue

But how do you know what students are getting themselves into. Have you seen the To-Shin Do sylabus, do you know for a fact what a person like me running a group actually gets charged by Mr Hayes?

And in fact maybe the same warning could be issued against the Bujinkan, and believe me you really do not want to go there.

And Hatsumi Sensei doesn't also get his cut?

So Hatsumi Sensei is not a merchant? Hmmm.
A millionaire who has made his money through martial arts, but not a merchant.

Keikai
Thanks for apologising, but maybe the apology is not for me.

Gary Arthur

 

Just wanted to note that Hatsumi-sensei had considerable money before the Bujinkan became so big. Soke himself has said, on many occassions, that he never cared if the Bujinkan became large or not, and even not is pearing down what we have to make the organization better. After all, it has accumulated its fair share of garbage over the years. Steve, on the other hand, makes his living through this art. There is a big difference. Hatsumi-sensei does not need to save face as it doesn't matter how many students he loses over an unpopular decision. So is Hatsumi-sensei a merchant? Maybe, but he certainly doesn't depend on it. Does Mr. Hayes? When you see an article telling people to tune in to future DVDs, books, etc. in order for secret information from Hatsumi-sensei to be revealed, I think the answer is obvious. If I really wanted to know the answer of what the information was, I could ask Shiraishi-sensei tomorrow morning for free.

 

In other words, everything I have said is true but you want to sweep it under the rug. BTW- where is Steve's name on the judan board at Honbu? No one seems to be able to find it....

And to divert attention away from Steve, you are going to now try to turn the conversation towards painting soke as a budo whore just like Steve is.

 

I have to agree with Grim here. This thread is about Hayes, not Soke. If you want to discuss that topic to get back at people for talking about Hayes, make it a separate topic. Pointing out a similar fault in someone does not make it okay for the other person to have done it. If Hayes killed someone today you could not defend his character by saying, "Well, Takamatsu-sensei killed people once." That doesn't make it any less wrong for Hayes to have killed someone.

Don't worry, I'm not taking sides in this argument because I have my opinion and don't need to publicize it or argue about it. I am simply pointing out the fallacy of a few arguments here. Carry on.

 

Garth, it was meant for you, and your right, but i was intentially trying to derail it or else it goes the way its going now, i like Hayes but other dont,

So sorry mate, i thought i was doing right until Mr K jumped on it.

 

How about we just let the thread die?

 

Grimjack posted

Where does this prove that Mr Hayes was a liar. So his name has been removed from the board, did we ever say that it wasn't?

Silentnightfall posted

No its not about shifting blame, its about pointing out that the same allegations that are leveled at Mr Hayes work equally for Dr Hatsumi.

Depends why he killed someone. To protect his children against armed assailants, to stop a terrorist attack, to fight for his country?

Really? and your point is?
Oh so because someone already has money they cannot be a merchant. Hmmm

And where do you think he would be today without the Bujinkan?

No he doesn't need to he has other people selling them for him.

I wonder if history and traditions is still being sold?

Yep same goes for Mr Hayes.

Gary Arthur

 

I thought i'd repost this a little bigger

 

Works for me. . .

 

Pardon
didn't hear it the first 2 times

 

Gary, I think you missed my point. Whether or not Soke is a merchant or not, this is not a factor in the discussion, which seems to be the character of one SKH. If you wish to provide a warning to people in another thread about not following a Soke that you feel is a merchant and acting in the interest of money, feel free! My point was to point out the logical fallacy in saying what SKH has done is okay because you think Soke does the same thing.

As far as where Soke would be without the Bujinkan? He would still be teaching like he was before SKH showed up. The world may or may not have learned of Soke from another source by now. I can't say either way. The question should be, where would SKH be without the Bujinkan, who he has tried to stay associated with for all this time despite publicly bashing the current methods by which Soke teaches and teaching a system much different from that of the Bujinkan, as claimed by Soke himself. Where would SKH be withoyt the Bujinkan? Or rather, where will he end up if he indeed is cut off? Quite frankly, I don't care either way.

As for that conversation over lunch with Soke, do you think SKH would tell anyone that asked him about that information or would he tell them to wait for the DVD's, books, etc.? Could I ask him about it and get the real information? I know that Shiraishi-sensei and Nagato-sensei would most likely answer anyone that asked them in casual conversation without a price. Perhaps Steve affords some courtesy to his instructors, but I doubt he would openly share such things with regular practitioners.

That being said, let's just let this one die. We know where it's headed and quite frankly, my only reason for posting here was to point out a logical fallacy in argument. I would have done so had it been anyone else so don't feel targeted, Gary. I really don't want to get in to this as we know where it leads. I'm going to sit back and watch where the recent turn of events leads like the rest.

 

Not quite

Nice try, Garth.

If you'd like to walk through all of the "allegations" (read: "truths") about Hayes that I have been so kind to point out in other threads, and then provide a response to how each one of them equally applied to Hatsumi-sensei, I'd most appreciate it.

I have been VERY SPECIFIC as to my qualms with Mr. Hayes.

PLEASE BE SPECIFIC about your allegations against Soke, rather than trying to paint him with the same ruddy brush as Mr. Hayes. Also, please start another thread for this purpose. This thread was started by someone who felt a need to admonish us (and myself by name) for expressing opinions about Mr. Hayes. Let's leave the thread as is and carry your concerns to another thread.... That is, if you have actual concerns that you would like to air, rather than straws you want to grasp....

Still the Soke of (at least) nine distinct Ryuha with Dan ranks in several traditional Japanese arts. Probably teaching a handful of students like he was doing before the entire Ninja boom. In other words, Soke would be "keeping going"--always chasing the tail of the Takamatsu stallion.

-ben

 

I know you guys are going to think its a cop out but I think the advice is to let the thread die.

However Ben Cole I think you need to read my posts again, as its obvious you think i have levelled some allegations against Hatsumi Sensei, which I have not.

Any way before Saru 1986 shouts again i'm off

Gary Arthur

 

You said this, Gary: its about pointing out that the same allegations that are leveled at Mr Hayes work equally for Dr Hatsumi.

What allegations can be leveled "equally" at Soke?

The allegations (read: "truths") that Grimjack and I have posted regarding Mr. Hayes can in no way be "ported over" to Soke.

If you have any qualms with Soke, please be specific. That way your qualms can be addressed.

Regards,

-ben

 

Just one small point Garth, if i was shouting it would have been in CAPITALS but the font size and colour was changed as the previous font was obviously too small.

 

This thread reminds me of that letter by.. um... I forgot his name now. Basically a nice little letter sent to the Bujinkan about why ________ is leaving. Includes all kinds of disrespect like calling Hatsumi sensei a "merchant" and only wanting money and such. I know some of you folks know what I'm talking about.....