Physical aspects that are at all comparable to martial arts? Really??? I don't consider instruments to be people and so 'solo skill' is a perfectly accurate description. Under your definition sitting on the toilet is something you do not perform solo. I would not define a person as an instrument. Defining a musical instrument as the same thing as a training partner ignores the rather important distinction that a training partner has their own mind and can propel themselves independently of your input. A musical instrument does not do this. Yeah if we buy into your definition of instrument as 'anything you use when training'. This to me is a pointless and confusing definition and I think the distinction between an object/person is a pretty important distinction as training with an object will be remarkably different from training with a person. Using your (insane) definition you are using your hands and the air as your instrument so hey... still not solo!
Let's just be clear here though do you recognise that instruction with a good quality instructor and other training partners is likely to be more beneficial than self training using DVD/books? Kuro you really shouldn't throw around the claims of fallacies so much. The facts that almost every person does not do well self taught and that pretty much all successful martial artists agree that you need formal training to excel are very relevant to whether it is possible to 'learn bujinkan through DVD/Books'. You are also ignoring point 3) practically no serious martial artists outside of those selling a product regard DVD/book learning as suitable on its own to become proficient in an art. It is not a fallacy to raise those points in response to your claim. They are directly relevant to your arguments. Really? So how did they get noticed by a professional scout? Did the scout pop round to watch them practice in their back garden? Or where they playing in college teams? Look you obviously are not going to change your mind about anything. You have already decided that everyone else is wrong and you are the most logical and reasonable person here so why bother with the discussion? Isn't the definition of stupidity to do the same thing over and over and expect different results? You seem to be making the same arguments here over and over again and dismissing all the same points so what is the point in the discussion continuing? If it is simply to continue arguing then I think the thread has outlived it's usefulness.
I don't like Kuroshinobi's trolling either, but this thread is doing some good. I got some quotes from Rubber Tanto and Hayseed to add on, and I got some points to think about before I edit the blog. I am still hoping for more people to come on and give testimonials as to their bad experiences with video learning and so if possible I would like the thread to stay open.
My uncle is trained and owns black belts in multiple arts. And i'm pretty sure my training is a lot more harsh than yours. So I wouldn't consider it playing/dancing as much as pre rehearsed routines and elongated strikes But i'll tell you what Mr. Roley. You send me a video of you doing live sparring with some martial artist.(Not bujinkan members, Not pre rehearsed routine, Not elongated strikes. Different martial artist that are trying to win) Throw some armour on. Grab a wooden tanto. And please show me how you avoid being stabbed multiple times in ANY situation you can think of with you being unarmed. And I'll shut my mouth.
I believe I said it before that "I don't recommend self taught, but it's possible". On this page i've said it. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=34100604 "I think someone can do just fine through videos. And there's other martial artist with experience that will agree to some degree. I'm not saying you'll be the best or that learning through videos is the best idea. I'm just saying it's possible." But folks in here keep flipping the script on what I say. It's obvious I recommend learning in a class. Simple common sense will tell you it's better and easier to learn when you have people around you whom have the same goals in mind. Which is why I'm seeking bujinkan from Japan. Sometimes when it's not so serious convo I won't point out fallacious worldviews. But when it's a serious convo and someone is trying to determine a fact of reality about our world. Then I think it's time to point out a fallcious argument. Fallacious arguments can sound VERY convincing but are still fallacious ways of thinking. And they're fallacious for a reason. Because it's not a good way of being certain of something. And is incorrect. < What serious test have you done to prove this And how many "serious" martial artist do you know in order to hold weight on that claim? Actually it's fallacious to slightly change an argument and prove that argument to make it seem like you have proven the original premise. When you really didn't. That's what I just pointed out. They had to get into some kind of league... Therefore end up getting coaching to get noticed by professionals. See what I said here "AND to get noticed by professional teams." What points have I dismissed? Everything you just said about me... I could say about you. But the reason why I don't bring this case up against you is because it doesn't prove anything. Facts/Experimentation does. And pointing out someone fallacies does as well. It proves their position that they hold is obviously an illogical one... Since it relies on fallacious way of thinking.
So Bujinkan is the only art in existence? Because I might be getting senile... but I could've swore you said I don't have any real teacher in ANY art. And that all I did was play around. I'm pretty sure I got more respect with real martial artist when I first decided to hop into a cage to spar with them. Rather then bore them with my resume.(Which frankly I don't have much of, but either way lol) <Off topic> Kuro- stop dragging up arguments from other threads. This is the final warning.
You never mentioned that your uncle had black belts. You just said he "had rank". Now you are changing your story as it suits you. And even people not in the Bujinkan have voiced doubts about your honesty. In any case, you have never had training under a qualified Bujinkan teacher so you just do not know what you are missing. You are trying to see the whole picture without being exposed to the other side. People are not listening to you because opinions are based on experience and you have none.
Kuroshinobi,did you learn English from a home instruction course? Because if I was you I would be looking for my money back.
Kuro, The title of this thread is "You can't learn Bujinkan from video". Speaking as a practitioner and member of the Bujinkan for sixteen years: It's true. You can't. End of story. You certainly CAN witness either correct or incorrect Bujinkan methodology( i.e. body movement, weapons usage, tactics, etc. ). from video, depending on whom you are watching perform said methodology. But you cannot be self-taught in martial art anymore than you can be self-taught in carpentry or painting or cooking. The arts of the Bujinkan, specifically, are koryu. In broad strokes, that means they are a "current way" of doing something that is the result of hundreds of years of accumulative experience, kept "current" by each successive generation of practitioners, in the ONLY way in which they were meant to be transmitted: from teacher to student during actual training. Which, yes, may even include "sparring" with and learning from practitioners of other martial arts. Now Kuro.....if there is any lingering ambiguity on your part concerning the learning of Bujinkan from video, please feel free to PM me and i will do my best to elucidate further and answer any questions that you may have. Mark Spada
Great. So you agree that learning in a class is better than learning from a DVD. Glad to hear it. That is one point at least that everyone seems to agree on. Tests? None. This isn't a social science forum and you are not citing anything more than your own subjective experience to support your position so why are tests required. I've been doing martial arts for hmm... 10 years or so now. I've been involved with Wing Chun, Muay Thai, BJJ & Judo communities and I've been on this site discussing martial arts for 6 years so I am drawing from my personal experience in martial arts and from what I observe of professional fighters. As far as how many 'serious' martial artists I personally know hundreds and none of them would recommend learning primarily from a DVD. In fact in my entire time in MA the only people I have seen advocating this are teenagers/people in their early twenties on martial arts forums who are not training in actual clubs. So far you are perfectly living up to the profile I have come to expect from people who make this kind of argument. Except you seem to be in good shape and may actually have the potential to be a good fighter... that's not typical but it is more disappointing. Your argument is that you believe that you can learn Bujinkan from DVDs/books. Everyone else here is saying they can be useful but you cannot learn solely from books and they are pointing out the need for personal instruction from an experienced source and interaction with other training partners. Those are not fallacious arguments they are simply arguments which do not agree with your position. Not agreeing with you does not make someone's argument fallacious. If that was your point then please note that you are contradicting yourself. My point was that you couldn't learn to play football well by just practicing on your own and your response was to point out that people play football on their own but then they join a team in order to get good? Great counter argument. You have dismissed the fact that people are not disagreeing with you solely for the 2 points you mention but for a whole litany of reasons. The fundamental one being that no serious martial artist, not out to sell something, advocates that you can become proficient by training solo from DVD's and books. You might be able to get good at katas or perform fancy kicks but your fighting ability will be low because you need to train against other people to get good at fighting. Also you could say everything that I have said back to me but it would be irrelevant and it wouldn't make any sense. I'm not arguing that people can become good from learning from DVDs and videos and I train at an actual MA club. Experienced members of the Bujinkan are telling you that learning from a DVD/book is insufficient to properly learn what the Bujinkan teaches. This seems to be in line with what practically all Bujinkan instructors who are not trying to sell on-line instructional courses believe. You are in turn arguing that this is not the case yet you have presented no compelling evidence of any individual who is well regarded in the Bujinkan who learnt primarily from DVD/books. You also admit that you are inexperienced in martial arts and have only had formal instruction from your uncle and your cousin. It doesn't require fallacies for people to not find your position very convincing. EDIT: Go and read Mark Spada's post... Kuro having looked back over your old comments it seems that you are claiming to train with your uncle and cousin who are/were both amateur/professional fighters. Can I ask if you think you could learn everything they have taught you from a DVD and some books?
Aah, my apoligies. I'll rephrase: Can you point me to the MMA, Kick Boxing, Boxing or BJJ title holder...(or even just at professional level) that has only aquired their skills through DVDs/Books? Is there any guy on sherdog, for example that has his training background as "DVDs/Books?" Of the Videos/books out there for sale, are any of these home study DVDs produced by guys who's own training only stems from home study through DVD/Books?
devils advocaat Evan Tanner was self (not solo) taught for quite a long time, (not including his wrestling base) but its not like everyone who tries to learn from DVD's will end up in the UFC. Besides Combat sports have an end measuring point, classical arts dont, beyond the correct transmission of there infomation. http://sfuk.tripod.com/interviews_02/ufc36_tanner.html UFC36 interview ''JB. I heard that when you first came out yu were pretty much self taught. Is that right? Evan Tanner : Yeah, absolutely. I started out at a grass roots show in Texas. I really had no intention of fighting and when I did decide to fight in one of those shows I started studying the Royce and Rorion jiu jitsu videos. I had a high school wrestling background, I added some submission holds into the wrestling and was successful with it to a point. I even made it into the UFC being pretty much self taught. But the sport has evolved so quickly I realised that I was getting left behind and that to compete at this level you're going to have to have a high level team. ''
ps - Charles Bennett is famous for hardly training for his MMA fights, heres him starting a fight backstage at a pride (no not that one) event and getting choked unconcious - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pawD9BGPTaU"]Fight Crazy Horse vs Cristiano Marcello backstage Pride 2005 - YouTube[/ame]
When i was a kid i attended a Judo tournament where one of the competitors was a scrawny tall guy with glasses (typical home schooled nerd variety). He had a blue belt and was entirely home schooled in Judo from books and videos. His rounds where the buzz of the tournament because everyone wanted to see exactly how he performed compared to traditional (normal) Judo training. His performance was ... disappointing, and he lost all his rounds. Anecdotes aren't evidence but they are great stories. It's stuck in my head for a long time. From personal experience book or DvD learning do not cut it. They are good for reference or if you want to ask your instructor something when he says "Show me" but other than that - meh.
Your evidence is rejected. If i started learning BJJ from videos i couldn't claim to be self-taught because i have a Judo background. I think what RT was saying was "Someone who has no background what so ever and is self-taught". (Correct me if i am wrong)
actually yes you could, they are similar but different, otherwise you would be able to learn Bujinkan nagewaza from videos but wouldnt be able to claim to be self-taught because you have a Judo background. Its either exclusive or inclusive Ace of Clubs, which one do you want it to be?
BJJ is a derivative of Judo. Learning mathematics from K-12 at school but later teaching yourself Calculus doesn't make you a self-taught mathematician.
How much spider guard did you learn in judo? or neck cranks, leg locks? rubber guard, omoplata sweeps, how about defenses to strikes whilst on the floor, Judo was the base for BJJ, but its come a long way in the intervening 90 or so years. Otherwise you could say Judo is a derivative of Koryu, so why not just train koryu and then enter judo competition? edit - so your saying that you could say learn say Judo to a high standard, and then learn something via DVD successfully afterwards?
