You can't learn Bujinkan from video

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Unholy, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    They were very gentle with me, but i think that was mainly because i was still a low rank... and a kid.

    From my experience each rank brings on a new world of pain... that's why i've been trying in vain to figure out how to dodge gradings. Need to work on my evasion imo.

    Do you wear a mouthguard for training? Just wondering.
  2. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Personally, I was wearing the black noose at the time...and the year before, I was suggested to move up a notch by the same person. I don't think they treated me any different than anyone else.

    Don't be there when they test people for rank, say no when they tell you that you've just got it and don't pay for it. Problem solved.

    Not usually, no.
  3. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    How long are you up there for? You planning on taking classes when you get back home?
  4. newblack

    newblack エピクフェイル


    Of all the posts in a poor history, this is the stupidest.

    You really show your ignorance here.
  5. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    I'm not trying to take digs at you like you do at me.

    I'm just giving my honest opinion.

    And there's opinions all over the world.

    I think someone can do just fine through videos.
    And there's other martial artist with experience that will agree to some degree.
    I'm not saying you'll be the best or that learning through videos is the best idea.
    I'm just saying it's possible.

    Heres a post from a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu group about a purple belt that actually recommended these online instructions for beginners.

  6. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    Please learn how to copy and paste correctly. This is unreadable.

    Secondly - "learning" from video is bad, m'kay. Refreshing from video is fine.

  7. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer


    That sounds like a really well made vid series. I've yet to see anything near as in depth for Bujinkan. If there were such a series on BJK training, I think you'd hear something more along the lines of "You can't learn BJK from a video, but if you're going to waste your money anyway, get this series as they show multiple angles etc, etc, etc..", but you have to understand, this isn't really a theoretical discussion. When people say "you can't learn from video", it is based off of personal experience in dealing with people who learned from video and did not come out ahead.

    I'll give you an example of something I played with from video...(2:05-U Ryu)


    ...keep in mind that by this time, I was somewhat familiar with BJK(been to a couple mini-seminars)

    Still, there are questions; where does the "tightening in" in the initial trapping come from?(elbows? or higher up using more of the upper back/shoulder muscles),

    Is there a kyojitsu happening before the underarm transition?(i.e. shifting to the opposite side and waiting for resistance to facilitate the transition),

    Is there a gyaku being applied to the grabbed hand?,

    During the transition, what part of uke's arm is being engaged by tori's elbow?(towards the elbow? or higher near the shoulder),

    What's the angle of force being applied by tori's elbow?(i.e. vertical, vertical-forward, vertical rear, vertical outward),

    Is uke being "hipped" during the transition?

    Do you grab uke's other arm and bring it to the lock, or do you keep it trapped to facilitate the lock?

    Once the lock is applied, what kind of force and in what direction is it being applied?(i.e. linear vs. rotational, and for both of those, is it upward, downward, outward forward, outward left, outward right sweeping left and vice versa)

    Then we bring in another person, because at the very least, you have to have a training partner.(you can't "shadowbox" biomechanics) How's their ukemi? Can your training partner even take ukemi? What if you hurt him?

    These questions would all be covered in a dojo. I mean you could guess right on this one, but wrong on the next, and if you do, where does that leave your training partners? What if you guess wrong alot?

    All that being said, I don't have a problem with people trying to familiarize themselves with basic basics from video, but to act as if you've actually really "learned" anything shows a huge amount of arrogance IMO.
  8. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    seriously? I realize that the quote tags took a toll on the script.

    But if you really don't have something productive to post... Try not posting. You're pushing valuable replies out the way.
  9. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    Hayseed, it goes back to what I said before.
    "I'm not saying you'll be the best or that learning through videos is the best idea.
    I'm just saying it's possible."

    I'm not saying learning from videos is the best way of doing things or the best idea.
    But it is possible.

    And to be honest that video doesn't look like it's specifically made to instruct beginners.
    Nor does it look like a good video to really learn the technique from. Hes only explaining the gist of it... not really going into detail step by step what hes doing.

    There's videos that are better than others.
    And some that are worse.

    And there's people whom have had bad experiences
    And there's people whom have had good experiences
  10. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    Speaking for yourself again?
  11. bboygyro

    bboygyro Valued Member

    Ummm...yeah. You've officially jumped the shark at this point.
    Yes, everyone has's just that your's shows a DEPTH of inexperience in budo (IMO).

    You believe that it's possible to learn Budo Taijutsu from video, despite the fact that people senior to you (such as Don and Daniel) tell you otherwise. Fine....maybe it is possible, just like it's possible that I wake up tomorrow and can walk through solid objects. There's just no way to be epistemically certain, just not likely to ever happen, right? Arguing your point based on a .00000000000000001% (highly overstated) chance seems like a waste of time, and something that only the truly stubborn and inexperienced would partake in (at least in my experience).

    You are arguing a point with no evidence to back it up, only evidence to the contrary. Give up the battle. You are not just fighting people with FAR more experience than you, you are arguing against Hatsumi-sensei's opinion on video training. And before you break out with "appeal to authority", yup...that's exactly what I just did. I appealed to THE authority on Budo Taijutsu. If you disagree with Hatsumi-sensei on this point, that is fine. But he is the final word right now on all points Budo Taijutsu.
  12. campsinger

    campsinger Valued Member

    As far as the Bujinkan is concerned, or any of the Takamatsu-den schools, the answer, in the opinion of myself and several other shidoshi, is no, it's not possible. Oh, you'll learn something, I suppose, but it's not Bujinkan, or Genbukan or Jinenkan either, for that matter. Use the videos as informertials as a beginner, or for inspiration after you've got several years of training with a teacher under your belt.

    You are free to disagree if you wish, but that doesn't change the results. You posted an opinion. I and others have posted evidence from our own experience either as a student trying to learn from video or as a teacher dealing with students who tried to learn from video that repudiates that.
  13. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    A needless toll. Learn to copy and paste correctly.

    I assure you my post was significantly (by orders of magnitude) more valuable and productive than yours, just shorter.

  14. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    It actually still equates to an opinion of yours.
    Because you're using your own personal experience, not factual evidence/reasoning/logic.
  15. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    Everythings possible... but those things you listed are pretty irrelevant.


    Because although everything is possible. There's things that are Highly probably of being factual
    and highly improbable of being factual.

    What you listed are things we know with great deal of certainty to be highly improbable.
    Versus a topic that is really more opinionated and not really certain.

    In reality it all depends on what you want out of martial arts. Are you trying to be able to perform bujinkan techniques accurately and textbook.
    Are you trying to become an effective martial artist in a style that fits you and your personality.

    And honestly I don't think you have any right to speak for Soke Hatsumi
  16. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Logic, Bujinkan and other related arts are taught by direct transmission by a teacher or teachers. Logic no video can do this as it is indirect transmission.
  17. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    That's an assertion, not logic.

    That's more wishful thinking fallacy.
  18. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I've heard it from the horse's mouth. I.e. the artist formerly known as Yoshiaki. Sorry, it's not wishful thinking.
  19. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    As fact one is a fact not speculation. fact two follows logically. So all those hours you spent watching Naruto were wasted, sorry :(
  20. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    You're trying to tell us what is not possible due to someones opinion.
    So yes.... that's wishful thinking.

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