You can't learn Bujinkan from video

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Unholy, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    The closest thing I can think of that I've seen are the ones who don't care about learning the system, but merely want to hang out after work/school with some friends, get to move around some and improve their self-confidence a bit. The "bunch of tricks" part admittedly applies to them at least. But seeing as these people tend to gravitate towards the instructors who are the LEAST interested in teaching actual kata, they could hardly be classified as kata collectors.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  2. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

  3. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Hmm...depends what eyes you are looking with.

    When a sensei asks his uke to punch, some step forward and throw their fist out as the kata dictates while others are actually trying to hit their target with intent. Some will throw that first punch then just hang there in limbo while their sensei performs a number of movements/strikes/techniques on them like their a ragdoll... others will react and *try* and counter realistically as their sensei progresses through the drill/technique.... if you are just going through the motions then you're not fighting or learning how to're just looking pretty...


    I don't know Kagete, at my dojo I just train with fellow martial arts students. I have no idea if they are Christians, mentally retarded, sociopaths, street fighters, alcoholics or empire builders. (You're dojo sounds like a scene from Blazzing Saddles!) Of most of them I don't even know what job they do. All I care about is how well they train and how seriously they take their training. Of those that shine, I get along well with them and get to know them better...many of those will read this post. Of those that don't even take what they do seriously...I don't even know their name. I rarely partner up with them.
  4. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I agree, but this has nothing to do with kata collecting.

    And just like that, you go right ahead and assume that I encountered all of these types of people in one single dojo.

    The reason I brought it up was as an attempt to shove another stake in the heart of the myth that "it doesn't affect me if other people suck". All of the types of people mentioned above will, in their specific ways, have some degree of influence over the way that the training is conducted. It's more or less impossible to train in Japan without realizing which people are empire builders, for instance.

    If I were to judge the rest of the world by my own standards here, I would say that there are always instances in which you're told to pair up with someone you're not too fond of/familiar with by the instructor in charge, and that there isn't much you can do about it without causing a scene (for instance, at a seminar, in Honbu, in another dojo, when another instructor is acting as a substitute etc etc etc). As it is, however, I know from experience that there are indeed places where you are free to practice with the people you prefer all the time, and from what you tell me, that seems to be the case with the dojo where you train.
    Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another discussion, however I will say this - much of what I've learned about handling pressure in the Bujinkan has been when I thought we were supposed to practice kata in a calm, controlled manner, and the person I was training with had other ideas.

    And yes, whether or not that is a good thing is also a different discussion.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  5. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    The densho do not indicate how the opponent is supposed to throw the punch. It just states things like 'Opponent comes with right fist' and sometimes 'Opponent comes with right fist to the face' for example.

    Also, do you think that someone who attacks with a tsuki is not trying to hit their target with intent?
  6. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..


    Lets be honest here, man...does they uke in that video look like he is trying to hit his target with intent? Is tori hitting his target with intent? ANYONE in that clip doing ANYTHING with bloody intent?

    And I am not being smart, but do you think if Takamatsu asked a student to punch him to demonstrate the technique and his uke threw a sloppy half-hearted shot (just like that clip) that the excuse of "Actually, the densho do not indicate how the opponent is supposed to throw the punch." would cut it?
  7. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Look through the Takamatsu dvd. You'll see Hatsumi doing just that.
  8. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Actually, I used the 'densho states' statement to indicate that how you are throwing punches in your classes isn't incorrect. ;)

    That being said, the tsuki is there for a reason. You should be able to throw it with intent (and it should do damage when it connects). (and.. you should have the confidence in it to throw it knowing it will do damage when it connects).

    I don't watch youtube videos of bujinkan practitioners. More often than not everything you see is incorrect (and half the time works because it is for demonstration purposes, etc.) youtube bujinkan = life of disappointment.

    and I can't really speculate on what Takamatsu did or didn't do when he was teaching techniques.
  9. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    If you actually ever tried to hit a shihan with intent you would know why it's not a good idea.

    I'm not game to do it but if you ever decide to come to Japan I welcome you to try. I just want to make sure my camera is running so i can upload it to youtube later :hat:

    Taking one for the team is very noble of you
  10. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    If I was in Japan and asked to punch and I punched and ended up on my ass for my troubles...this would be a good thing. To tell you the truth, I'd like that type of thing on camera, on youtube...more of that would be a good thing.

    I went with my brother-in-law to watch an Aikido class a few years back in Thornbury...the Instructors name was Joe Tambo, or thambo...something like that. He was awesome to watch...

    we got there late and had to watch through the glass of the foyer door. We'd missed a lot but they were working on some type of throw. And the end of the class, he called up a few of his black belts and asked them to attack him and they did just, they came in with powerful attacks that still looked true to technique and precise, but man they were really trying to knock his block off...and he wiped the floor with them. He was so fluid and lightning fast. At times it got messy when something he planned to do failed but he was so quick to recover and move on. I found that to be very impressive.

    but if you didn't watch the clip, then you didn't see what I was getting at.
  11. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    um. what? I punch with intent each time I am asked to punch a shihan. Why would you not? In fact, if you don't, often a shihan will tell you to punch again.

    Also, you wrote "if you ever decide to come to japan". This seems to indicate you are already in Japan. Is this so?
  12. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    I may be wrong, but it seems that people are confusing when I say punching (in a traditional matter) WITH INTENT, with something like a shuffle forward jab cross combo!

    If this is the case, let me be clear. I just mean stepping in with a punch but punching like you really mean it. And when I say reacting realistically I mean that you get thrown, you don't throw yourself. You get taken down, you don't just fall down when its time. If the kata has you punch, then he punches then you punch (i'm just making a basic example) then that second punch is a PUNCH, not just your hand sticking out.

    that's why I posted that video is exactly what I hate.
    hope that clarifies.
  13. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    In 3 weeks. Wanna meet up :hat:
  14. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    In response to RT.

    I never punch with intent... it's just too easy to counter.
  15. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I don't make play-dates. If you happen to be training at a dojo I train at when I am there then perhaps we will meet.
  16. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Eh, what you are talking about can be really misconstrued. The ability to drop a technique that is going not as planned, as well as not giving someone any hints as to what is coming, comes from not being intent on any one thing. As one of my Japanese instructors said, "the other guy doesn't know what is coming because I don't know what I am going to do."
  17. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I've sparred with a Japanese shihan.
    I tried to hit him with intent whilst doing so.
    I connected a couple of times, he took me down more than a couple of times.

    Did I just irreversibly destroy your worldview? If so, good, that was my intention.
  18. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    I know a few folks that have started out with home study and later said they really, really regretted it. But you are the first person I can point to for a testimonial. Can I use the above, or could you write something for the edit?

    People thinking of using home study courses want to believe that they can learn the art from video. Some of them are egotistical to think that they are different from anyone else. I can't help the later folks, but I tried pointing out that there is no one who is decent that started out with videos and did not regret it. But the voice of someone who had been there might be a lot more persuasive than my telling them that.
  19. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Does it matter? If only one person knows what i am talking about its all good :hat:

    You must have a pretty good dental plan :hat:
  20. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    It's funny you should say that, since I'm currently on antibiotics to combat a jaw any case, it doesn't seem like you think very highly of Japanese shihans if you believe the only way they can handle randori sessions is to knock their opponent's teeth down their throats.

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