You can't learn Bujinkan from video

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Unholy, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Hi folks!

    This is my latest blog.

    You Can't Learn Bujinkan From Video.

    I am still working on some points. If there is anything you think I should change or add, please let me know.
  2. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Nice one Don, great article
  3. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Thanks Norm.

    I am wondering how to improve it. I think I have to put in something about the "feeling" that Hatsumi stresses, and which I call "molding." You can't get feedback and molding from video, but in any art you need it to move beyond the mere technical. There are so many pieces that putting them together can be the challenge and it is that that differentiates the standard piano player from a Mozart.
  4. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    All I can say is you obviously haven't heard of master van donk, or mr hays (can't think of his made up honorific at this time) lol
  5. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Anshi, Anshu, Hanshi, Hachoo? Something like that.

    I assert that you can learn BBT from a video or a book. You just need to be very clever.

    I think if someone skilled enough explained something very clearly to someone clever enough it would work.
  6. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Well, we try not to think of these two:bang:
  7. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    I have never run across anyone that clever. Everyone of any skill level I respect all say that there were times that they needed someone to come along and point out something they thought was correct to be the mistake it was.
  8. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    To be sure, i have also had these moments.

    I'm certain that perhaps something simple like a forward roll could be taught through a video.
  9. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    That may be possible, but I remember I needed a lot of input even at the beginning. And after I got some experience, I still was able to gain a lot of insight from teachers taking me aside and telling me what I was doing wrong in basic ukemi as well as why it was wrong.

    And as I pointed out in the article, it does not mean that someone who has been through a few years of training can't pick up pointers from a video. It just is that you can't start your journey from something that at best can only give pointers.
  10. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Do you remember Soke's Hanbo book? I think that is a good example of a textbook that can teach BBT.

    I also think that is why he hasn't made something similar since... I think you can learn from Books and DvDs but you won't get the kuden. So even though you may know techniques and movements you won't know BBT.

    Get what i am saying. (Although I do agree with you. But we must argue because it is good training)
  11. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    I think I get what you are trying to say, but you have not made clear the idea that everything that forms a base to training is assumed.

    It is the folks that start out in training and don't even know how to use their knees that are the intended target. If you know how to use your body and know how to slide a hanbo in your hands, you might want to pick up the hanbo book. I am not quite willing to say you can learn everything about hanbojutsu from it. But by the time you pick up a hanbo you should have at least that amount of understanding.
  12. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Timing? Intent? Openings? Kuzushi?
    Don't you actually have to train to learn to throw someone? The ability to successfuly fight another fighter/martial artist does not come from techniques or rote repetition. If you don't train with other people, you can't learn how to fight. If you are training with other people, what is teaching you? Is it the book, or is it the experiences gained in training?
  13. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    I understand what you are saying.

    Unfortunately (fortunately) i have never been without some degree of MA knowledge so i couldn't even imagine what it would feel like.

    Although in saying that i recently started learning Japanese seriously and there is a world of difference between trying to teach yourself from books and the internet to having a private instructor sitting next to you. (But then again language is not the same because i already know other languages)

    Which actually brings me to my next point. BBT tries to teach natural movement. Wouldn't most people have some degree of assumed knowledge already? Wouldn't it just be a matter of reverting to a state of naturalness(?) and shedding bad habits?

    Actually i just thought of a fantastic experiment.

    Get 6 Hanbo books, 9 students all with varying levels of knowledge (no training, some training in another art, training in BBT) and 1 instructor and split them up to into three groups.

    Three of the hanbo books will have extra scribbles done by an experienced instructor to explain things further than the book.

    First group (control group) the untrained person gets nothing, trained person gets the book and the BBT person gets the modified book and instruction.

    Second group the untrained person gets the book, the trained person gets the modified book and instructor, and BBT guy gets nothing.

    Third group the untrained person gets the modified book and instruction, the trained person gets nothing and the BBT person gets the book.

    Train each person for 2 months (only on hanbo) and tally the results!

    That would be sweet... who wants to be a guinea pig?
  14. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    The assumption is that you know what is "natural" and have enough experience with people trying to kill you to be able to tell what is correct and what is just something like what Kusoshinobi does.
  15. Big Will

    Big Will NinpƓ Ikkan

    How is that a good example?
  16. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    If I were you, I'd have acknowledged that fact about myself and stopped arguing right there.

    An assumption makes an ass out of you and me.

    The problem isn't always that people are ignorant, it's that they think they know so much which in reality amounts to less than nothing. It's especially painful to watch when you have adults with backgrounds in other martial arts stumble in. They're so full of themselves and their preconceived notions about martial arts training it's not even funny.

    Although Stephen Hayes, by way of Ninjutsu - History and Tradition - would have you think otherwise, it doesn't work that way. Humans are the only animals who have to be taught how to do things naturally.

    The results will differ wildly between test subjects from Japan, Australia, America, Germany, Italy, Spain, South Africa, Peru etc etc etc...
    Wouldn't prove anything.
  17. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Sure, you can learn a technique out of a book. But that does not mean you will be any good at it.

    Just watching someone complete a technique - even with a detailed explanation of what's occuring - is not enough to show you what to do, and more importantly, what to do correctly.

    Had that been the case, then your average martial arts class would be the instructor walking in, showing a technique a few times then walking back into his office for a coffee and read of the paper while everyone else tries to work it out.

    think how many times you have asked your instructor "what am I doing wrong here? It just doesn't feel right?" or you THINK you're doing it correctly and suddenly your instructor has walked over and corrected you (not turning hips enough, not pivoting, whatever)

    Books a great to give experienced martial artists ideas to explore in the dojo. They are also good at wetting a newcomers apetite enough so that they go find a dojo...but that is about it.
  18. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    I think you can learn from books and videos just fine. As long as you have another dedicated partner to practice with. Learning how it works through sparring and practice with your partner.

    But obviously nothing I say can ever be true... Due to experience.
    But when you cannot when the argument... You definitely have to find some other reason as to why you don't have to listen to someone.
  19. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Nope. There are many reasons why it is not possible to learn something as complete as Bujinkan (as compared to pointers) from books. One thing is that you need to have someone with knowledge point out the subtle mistakes you make that you are not aware of. Having just another training partner who is equally ignorant does not work.

    Everyone here who has had real experience in a real school under a qualified teacher can tell you that there were many times when both they and their partner thought they were doing something correct, only to have the teacher prove them wrong.
  20. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Thats good. Mind if I use it and give credit when I update the blog?

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