Ok this issue has come up in another thread in the Kung Fu forum - and it's gotten a bit out of control over a very short time... even though it started out as a rather decent conversation. Surprise, surprise. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60326&page=2&pp=15 It seems some... *cough*bcbernam777*cough*... have gotten their panties knotted rather tightly that the subject has even come up for discussion... So I thought it was an important enough subject to discuss at large.... that means it really should get it's own thread. So here's what I want to know/discuss: 1) What references can you provide to Yip Man's opium addiction? Feel free to cite articles, interviews, anecdotes or even info from other threads and other forums. 2) Is it reasonable to bring up the subject of his drug addiction? Or is it something so disrepectful that we should not discuss it at all? 3) Can a person be function as an island unto themselves? Would Yip Man really have been immune to his culture, era or social setting? 4) If not... what were the short term and long term effects of his opium addiction? 5) What effect... if any... did that have on his martial art system of Wing Chun? Did it influence what was passed on in that system? What effect did the whole issue of his addiction to opium have on his students? 6) Do you feel that discussing issues like his drug addiction are valid in the sense that they allow us to understand a bigger picture of who he was as a person and the time and social setting in which he lived? If not... please explain at length why not. Also please feel free to expand on the issue at large - mainly that someone being a public figure is open for discussion on pretty much any level - not limited to Yip Man and his opium... but really this could apply to just about any famous martial artist as well - you could take this same discussion and apply it to anyone performing at the top level in their respective field. How does a discussion about Yip Man and his addiction differ from professional athletes and drug addiction? Other public personalities? Politicians? Other forms of teachers? Let the conversation begin.
1: the word "opium" is not in the wikipedia entry on yip man, so it can't be true. given how whiny his students have proven to be, however, resorting to opium to drown it all out isn't unreasonable 2a: see 5. 2b: "respect" does not enter into issues pertaining to the veracity of claims regarding dead historical figures.
it's his life, he lived to a ripe old age and his wing chun was amazing, that's it as far as i'm concerned!
I remember reading a reference to yip man smoking opium in the "tao of bruce lee" If i remember correctly (i haven't got the book to hand right now) the author talks about the theory that BL died from an adverse reaction to marijuana but this was covered up because unlike opium which was smoked by yip man and bruces father which was considered socialy aceptable , weed was thought of as a western drug and therefore dirty , hence the headache tablet story being produced. As for the rest , i think it's perfectly valid to discuss as it must have had some kind of impact on his training , but i don't know enough about wing chun to be able to speculate further.
Damn that's funny! Slip, his PoV is also valid, no? In one sentence he's perfectly answered your questions 3, 5 and 6! :Angel: Me, I refuse to take part in this kind of conversation on account of it being disrespectful to the ancient traditions of the opium trade.
Indeed, let's not focus on the muck of their respectable history and focus on their dodgy dealings with devious martial artists. There is plenty about those simple buisnessmen we forget; their families, the care, thought and effort they put into their work... Talking about them selling, using or giving drugs is just focusing on the worst part of them and belittles all that they are, which, coincidentally, has NO LINK WHATSOEVER with their experiences with drugs.
On a more serious note... that at one point opium smoking was so prevalent in China I wonder how many other prominent martial artists have partaken? Surely that the opium trade was big business means that the 'opium trade' (eg. Chinese opium traders) would have employed martial artists as well - in the form of escorts, bodyguards and henchmen. Has anyone ever heard of stories (even anecdotal) to that effect? One cherished myth is that the opium trade was all a result of the Brit's - but that doesn't exactly tell the whole story - in that many Chinese were involved in the trade as well - for their own profit and to the detriment of their own people. Does anyone know if the opium trade ever spilt over into Korea, Japan or Russia? Surely there would have been many people in the same social conditions as Yip Man that had opium addictions. Does anyone know if this includes other prominent Chinese martial artists?
Opium is good stuff. If you want to know about opium in china, just read Tin Tin . Bruce Lee used weed, Yip man uses Opium. Obviously kungfu makes you into a drug addict.
Hey, I do kung fu and I've smoked weed!* Your observation is consistant so far. Is there any kung fu practitionner here that has never done drugs? If so, then we'll just have to include prescription drugs, caffeine and chocolate into the question; that oughta prove you right! * These comments are those of their author and their author alone. Martial Arts Planet endorses in no way, shape or form drug use. Nor do I. I did it, still do occasionally, but have no opinion whether or not someone should or should not use drugs and whether or not they should do it while practicing Tai Chi (hey, my name's not Airweaver). --- On a serious note; many chinese systems were developped and transmitted by people with medical (more often traditional, but not always exclusively) backgrounds or at least considerable knowledge of traditional medical concepts. Surface googling seems to indicate opium was, before the Opium War, used in TCM as treatment for diarrhea (possibly other uses; anyone versed in TCM?). Therefore, there is most probably a link between CMAs and opium, although only a person much better versed in TCM could tell exactly how significant this is.
LOL! A quick search turned up this book: http://www.amazon.com/Opium-Culture-Ritual-Chinese-Tradition/dp/1594770751 I'll have to give it a look. Another interesting bit from an abstract that gives us some rough outlines for the regions traditionally associated with opium/heroin use in China. It also makes reference to TCM as an aid in combatting addiction to opium based drugs.: source: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1196/annals.1316.054
1.) I am a 4th generation Yip Man and 2nd generation Pan Nam Sifu. { http://www.wcarchive.com/html/wing-chun-sifus.htm } It has been shared with with that yes Yip Man did use Opium. Many Sifu of today know this. 2.) It is reasonable and no it shouldn't be looked upon as disrepectful. This Man's contribution out weighs his use of Opium. The only ones who think it is disrepectful are those who have something to hide. 3.) Good question...who knows. 4.) No one will ever know with Yip Man due to no one ever discussed it with him prior to death. 5.) I don't know, my lineage is from Leung Sheung to Kenneth Chung to Eddie Chong and then to me. I know that the Wing Chun I practice does look different than his students that learned in Yip's Later years! Did his use have an effect over his art? Who knows....I've wondered this myself. 6.) Forums are for open discussion. I think any topic is valid. I have read many of your posts and find them to be very logical and open for discussion. Once again the only ones who think this is a disrespectful topic are those who have something to hide......IMHO. Kew-Do Sifu, Kyle Weygandt "East Wind Shaolin Boxing Academy"
LMFAO lol ROFL! ermmmmmm. Uh... ummm... did i read correct?! I could have sworn I saw the word escort up there somewhere in your post. tee hee :love: MALE ESCORTS??? With MAN THONGS??? LOL, martial artist MALE ESCORTS!?
Personally, my opinon is that if it's a historic fact, I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned. I'm not typically one for hero worship, and those are the folks who seem to have the most problem with this sort of thing. We're all human, and our bad bits are as much a part of us as the good bits. All that said, I'm not particularly interested in discussing it because I can't see the relavency. To me, it's an interesting piece of historical MA trivia, but I doubt it has any bearing on my understanding of martial arts in general and Wing Chun in particular. Honestly, my first thought was, "That's interesting. So what?" In other words, I don't think people should hide from it, but at the same time I see no reason to dwell on it. To answer the "golden six" line by line... None. Only heard about it through threads on MAP Sure, and I don't think it's "disrespectful" if we're simply discussing fact. Still not entirely sure why folks dwell on it, though. Dunno. Too big a question for me right now. Instinct says probably not. If you're discussing it's effects on Yip Man himself, I honestly don't care. I didn't know him. I don't have enough WCKF knowledge to answer this. There do seem to be an awful lot of different oppinions about some of the system's methods, foci, etc; if a teacher was under the influence of mind- or mood-altering substances, I'm sure that might account for some of these differences. Honestly, I am a bit curious about the "social setting in which he lived", but again I could not really care less about Yip Man's character as a person. I don't worship the guy, I don't hate him. So far the consensus seems to be that he had good kung fu, and that he was an opium addict, but I'm not sure how much one effected the other. Has this helped at all, or am I just adding useless chatter?
I have heard that Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao Hou of The Yang family tai chi chuan erm.. indulged. As to the truth of it, well it's just that it wouldn't surprise me in the least.. But i don't really know how true it is. They were both highly rated and respected in their time by the Chinese martial arts community.
That would hardly be surprising, given the money to be made. Think of a modern parallel - say Colombian cartels smuggling cocaine into the USA. You'd expect a few Americans to be get their fingers into the pie, wouldn't you? I can't say to what extent opium use spread to those countries, but I'm certain that there wasn't an organised trade like with China. Britain needed a way to pay for Chinese tea and china, and they found a receptive market for opium. Since most opium was grown in India back then, and Britain monopolised India (and ruled much of it directly) they had a ready-made monopoly on a hugely lucrative trade. When the Chinese government objected, British armed force sorted them out. (And forced thenm to hand over Hong Kong, to give the drug pushers a safe base from which to operate.) By contrast, Britain didn't have the same presence in countries like Japan and Korea, to try the same scam there. Hardly Britain's finest hour.
err... Escorts was in reference to an escort of bodyguards. I'm not quite sure where you got the idea of male prostitutes with man-thongs on... I'm not even sure I want to know.
