Ye olde traditional weapons's

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Amber, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. Amber

    Amber Valued Member

    I was reading the "archer vs sword" thread, and I was wondering;

    what weapons, in both East and West, were used for what? Something that got me was that sword's were not a warrior/soldier/infantrymans main weapon, but I was under the impression that because the Samurai used them alot, they were pretty much the best weapon out there.

    I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but if someone could explain to me, I'd appreciate it.
     
  2. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    The Samurai, depending on time period, were for a while mounted archers, not primarily swordsmen. Knights were largely On the battlefield, swords are a last resort, since they are a good "all around" weapon that is capable of dealing with a lot of different situations. It's a sidearm for the battlefield, not a main battle weapon like the lance, poleaxe, mace or bow. Swords are much more useful for unarmoured combat, which is where the whole "samurai as 1337 5w0rdzm3n" meme came from... after the Samurai weren't used on the battlefield as they once were. Swords are great for personal defence in medieval cities. Against armour, they're not ideal, but will "do in a pinch".

    Basically, it's about the MYTH of the sword versus the reality. Swords are tools for a fighter. There is no "magical" "uber" sword, just as there's no "magical" screwdriver. Either it's a good sword or it's not. If it's a design that survived for a long time, then it's probably a good one. There's a reason why the Norse would even break into old barrows to obtain an old sword. Some designs stood the test of time.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  3. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    OK, I'll do my best to explain it as I understand it. Please bear in mind that this is my understanding of the entire sword mythology based upon my own research into the Japanese sword arts and Japanese history.

    The samurai were, from their beginnings in the late 700's up to the end of the warring states period in early 1600's horse archers. The bujutsu used to be referred to as the way of the horse and bow. Different clans and families placed more emphasis on different weapons but there were two that all samurai learned ... the bow and the sword. The bow eventually fell out of favor. First, because of firearms wielded by conscript troops during the Sengoku Jidai, and later after firearms were banned, because there was basically no large scale warfare to utilize those skills.

    If horse archery was their main warring weapon, then why all of the mystique about swords you ask? I think it is due mainly to the fact that it is very difficult to master the sword. It takes a lot of very intensive training to get good with a sword. To be very good with a sword was to prove that you were well off enough to be able to spend the time required. In most of samurai history as well as medieval European history, there was nothing forbidding commoners from carrying swords. The problem was that carrying a sword meant someone might call you out to use it, and the vast majority of commoners simply did not have the amount of leisure time required to properly learn the sword, not to mention access to proper teachers. So, the sword came to be known as a gentleman's weapon. A badge of societal order. The better you were with your sword, the more of a gentleman that made you.

    Now, after the unification of Japan in 1603 (somewhere around there), the Tokugawa shogunate outlawed firearms and basically put an end to large scale warfare in Japan. He more or less froze society at that level and kept it there for almost the next 300 years. This left many samurai without much to do. Since there were no more wars, the majority of the warrior arts were basically abandoned. The only weapon in their arsenal which they were able to use was the sword. Therefore, from the time that Tokugawa Ieyasu unified Japan in 1600 until Admiral Perry forced it open in the 1860's, the sword was pretty much the only weapon studied by the large majority of the warrior class. Thus, the weapon that was already considered an elite gentleman's weapon was upgraded to being the only weapon.

    As far as I've been able to determine, this is where all of the "soul of the samurai" mystique about the Japanese sword came from.
     
  4. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    And of course, on the battlefield the spear was queen of the non-missile weapons.
     
  5. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    Another thing is that for some particular reason, Japan has taken good care of the old warrior culture – to some degree – especially the sword (this my have to do with taking care of traditions when looking at all the other traditions they have maintained). You have living warrior tradition, unbroken. And almost all of them include the use of the sword. One ryu includes several weapons, but the sword is being used against all of them, and the reason my be that someone thought that the sword is the weapon that suites all situations best, against all other weapons.
    Japan still have a strong tradition for making swords, now as art objects rather than a tool of war. You actually have to educate for this to be allowed to make steel swords. And when this has been maintained to this day and age, it’s not strange that you get a feeling that sword was the uber thing. It is the uber thing in its right situation, but again, all weapons are.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    We have the tokugawa shogunate to thank for the survival of the sword in Japan. If like europe they had discarded old for new then the sword arts of japan would have been lost like our have. (Though people are working to restore them atleast in part.)

    The Bear.
     
  7. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    Restoring of both warrior arts and weapons!
    You guys keep up the good work and fight truly!

    Maby in three generations we will have a tradition of a great bunch of dedicated people training western arts.
     

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