Wun Hop Kuen Do

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by SifuJason, May 18, 2007.

  1. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    The later. They used to go get into fights with strangers (and some still do). Back when Kajukenbo was being developed, it was a regular activity to go test the art in the Palama settlement. WHKD had similar field testing in its early days, and still gets tested in either military or paramilitary organizations by its practitioners there, as well as by those of us who have worked as bodyguards, bouncers, etc.


    As for being in the Kenpo forum, WHKD is a style of kung fu. It has some kenpo roots (since it is rooted in Kaju), but it is definitely kung fu. Al Dacascos studied with such people as Wong Jack Man, Bak Sam Kong, and Ron Lew.
     
  2. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun


    It seems most kenpo styles want to be associated more with kung fu than their real roots. Wun Hop Kuen Do is not a TCMA, Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, is what people classify as kung fu. You can maybe try to introduce it as a modern form of kung fu, which doesn't fit either, but it's definately not a TCMA.

    jeff:)
     
  3. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Most arts that we think of as TCMA aren't that old to begin with, so if we are looking at the age of a style, then the whole TCMA definition breaks down.

    If we are looking at lineage, however, then the definition of TCMA makes sense. In this context, WHKD is very much TCMA. Al Dacascos studied under people such as Wong Jack Man, Bak Sam Kong, and Paul Ng, all practitioners of TCMA. Our forms come from them, as does our kung fu. It is indeed a modern art, but it is rooted deeply in TCMA, as much as many newer TCMA styles.
     
  4. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun

    I think you and I think differently when it comes to our ideas of a TCMA. When I think Modern TCMA, I mean styles like Hung Fut, Hak Fu Mun, Jow Ga less than 400 yrs old. When I think TCMA I mean like Bak Sil Lum, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Pek Kwar etc.. Also, I might be wrong, but I don't see someone like myself creating an art and then calling it TCMA. It might be a martial art, but Traditional Chinese Martial Art is pushing it. Because one studied chinese martial arts and creates an art, does not make it Chinese martial arts.

    But then again, this is, "My' thoughts.

    jeff:)
     
  5. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    We may indeed mean different things. Regardless, this is a kung fu section, not a TCMA section. Most arts that people in this section practice are less than 400 years old, and thus aren't TCMA by your standards, but are certainly Chinese martial arts. Wushu is modern and is a Chinese martial art. WHKD is a chinese martial art. Hung Gar and Wing Chun are chinese martial arts, and all are less than 400 years old.

    Heck, most martial arts people practice are less than 400 years old, yet we don't say that shotokan and judo aren't Japanese martial arts, or that Tae Kwon Do isn't Korean since it's not "old enough."
     
  6. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun


    I agree Hung Gar and Wing Chun are CMA, they fall in that era with Hak Fu Mun, Hung Fut, Jow Gar etc... But I still can't see Wun Hop Kuen Do in that same picture. For one those arts were created by chinese in their element, not by someone who studied a few CMA arts and then created his own. Not taking anything away from Al Dacascos. From what little i've seen it looks to be effective, but to call it CMA or kung fu to me is wrong. If you refer to it as kung fu because it takes skill and hard work? Then, that's one thing, but most people refer to kung fu as Chinese Martial Arts, not by the actual translation.

    I've been in martial arts well over 20+ yrs, and have studied various styles of CMA. I've even created a form or two here and there, but I would not call it kung fu or CMA. Although, all the techniques come from CMA and have even met with approval from my sifu, to me it's not CMA, i'm American, so it's martial arts. To label something non chinese as CMA to me seems very wrong and a bit disrespectful to the culture.

    But this is just my thoughts once again..

    jeff:)
     
  7. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    If your standard for a system to be kung fu is that the founder must be Chinese, then WHKD is indeed kung fu, as Al Dacascos is Chinese and Filipino. Furthermore, if you consider Wing Chun and Hung Gar to be kung fu, then I don't see how WHKD isn't. Al Dacascos spent decades studying the Chinese arts (along with Kajukenbo), and eventually developed his own style. It's no different a development process than the formation of any other style of kung fu.
     
  8. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun


    We will just agree to disagree :D


    You will never get me to see your view, and i'm never going to see yours, as I would never put Wun Hop Kuen Do on the level of Hung Kuen or Wing Chun. I would look upon Wun Hop Kuen Do along the lines of Shaolin- Do Hwarang- Do (sp) Pai Lum and such.

    It's more than just the chinese founder that i'm refering to. Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Hak Fu Mun, Jow Ga, Fut Ga etc...were all tested huindreds of yrs ago on the streets and battle fields. To come along with an art created within the last 50yrs and compare it to them, is in my mind an insult. I would never mention Al Dacascos along with names like Lam Sai Wing, Bok Miu Jou, Wong Cheung, Yip Man, Chiu Kau, Lam Jo etc...

    Like I mentioned... I have nothing against Al Dacascos, but he's not on the level of those others that I named. If you speak of people like Daniel Pai or Dan Innsanto (SP), then I could understand bringing up his name.


    jeff:)
     
  9. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun

    My bad sorry!


    I guess I need to pay more attention to where i'm posting, I usually just look for a topic that catches my attention and then post.

    If I may ask, what is a resource sub-forum for?

    Is it just a place to post info about ones chosen style?


    jeff:)
     
  10. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    Carry on,I have split the thread so go right ahead and discuss your hearts out :)
     
  11. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun

    Well, just to continue the discussion..


    If Wun Hop Kuen Do is a Kajukenbo art according to your website, how can that make it a CMA style? Kajukenbo is more along the line of Kenpo/Kempo than CMA or kung fu.

    It's like I said before, it seems that most Kenpo/Kempo arts try to associate themselves with CMA more than their actual mixed roots. While some may have more CMA techniques within it than others, they still come from different backgrounds than CMA.

    It's like calling Taekwondo with a few butterfly kicks and plumb flower techniques kung fu, it's not, it's TKD with CMA techniques. Yet all these styles want to say they're kung fu like Chung Moo Doe, Hwarang Do etc..


    jeff:)
     
  12. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    WHKD is part of Kajukenbo because that is one of its roots. However, there is a very large amount of kung fu in the art--it is predominately kung fu. If you see our practitioners, we wouldn't be having this argument. It looks like kung fu and acts like kung fu.

    An example of other people agreeing is the recent "Art of Our Lands" Competition held by China, where people from around the world did demonstrations of various Chinese arts (from lion dance to kung fu to drama, etc). The German Dacascos team won with a lion dance/kung fu piece.
     
  13. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun


    Agreed!

    From what I've seen, the vids I've seen, (only on YouTube) are played a lot like CMA. I agree, it looks a lot like CMA. Your site claims that Wun Hop Kuen Do is Cantonese dialect,correct? But the vids I've seen look like they have a very strong Northern influence.


    jeff:)
     
  14. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    WHKD has both Northern and Southern elements. More of our flashier forms are of Northern influence; hence you seem them on video more. Our fighting has both elements in it, but I would (personally) describe it as more Southern in influence.

    Wun Hop Kuen Do is indeed Cantonese, for "combination fist art." I believe the Cantonese pronunciation was chosen because the Mandarin isn't as pronounceable to Westerners.
     
  15. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun



    Do you have any clips of some of the southern stuff?


    I'm glad you brought that up, because the forms I've seen (again only on YouTube) seem to be a lot of flash and fluff. Is there a reason for this?

    The reason I ask, is because usually when people create their own arts, it's to get away from flash and fluff, and incorporate more practical stuff. But there are arts that are geared towards flash and it's appeal on bringing students in... Wah Lum comes to mind with this.

    I thank You for the discussion, and not taking any of this as a personal attack on you or your style. I know how intent can easily be misunderstood on a internet forum.

    If it's not obvious I study Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun (Black Tiger) I studied some Northern and Southern CMA styles before that. Also dabbed into styles like Hung Gar, Fut Gar, Hung Fut, and Chen Taiji.


    jeff:)
     
  16. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    In the 80's I had countless Kenpo instructors trying to tell me Kenpo was a Gung Fu.I disagreed.

    However, I look upon WHKD as a Gung Fu.Maybe an American Gung Fu from the late 20th century,so perhaps calling it that rather than a Chinese system is more accurate,but it doesn't look like Kenpo to me.Granted, it may not be a "pure" GF, but then Ta Cheng Ch'uan incorporated some ideas from western boxing.But the overall flavor....

    Is Japanese Goju not Karate 'cause it's not Okinawan.Karate isn't Japanese originally.Is Peter Urban's American Goju not Karate?Certainly what the JKA practiced by the '60's was a quite different expression of Karate than what Funakoshi did (just look at the photos), but no one disputes it being a Karate system.I would say the base of a system defines what it is in relation to labels such as Gung Fu, Karate, etc.

    If I combined in a cohesive fashion elements of two Chinese systems I learned,Fu Hok Hung Gar and Nine Stances,Seven Kicks,and called it Hung Nine, would it not be a Gung Fu?Or would it only be a Gung Fu if I grew up in the Chinese culture, preferably with Chinese genetics to some degree?(Oh yeah, I dislike the southern Chinese colloquialism "gung fu", but i feel I have to use it on MAP and with the public).

    Just my outlook on the semantical discussion.

    .
     
  17. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    No worries, I tend to assume people are just being inquisitive verses attacking, and I am glad you are the former.

    There are no Southern videos that I know of. FYI, our Southern forms are from Bak Sam Kong's teachings, and include Fau Yip and Sui Lum Pai.

    As for flashiness and practicality, WHKD is rooted in practicality first and foremost; it is what draws most people to our art, and we pride ourselves on our fighting ability in real world situations (verses situations like point sparring). However, we very much acknowledge that flashiness wins many competitions, and so what you tend to see on video are modified forms designed for enhanced "winability" aka flashiness. So the reason for the flash and fluff on Youtube is because that is what tends to win tournament competitions and things such as "art of our lands."
     
  18. SirVill

    SirVill Valued Member


    While it might impress the masses, I get my jollies out of strong stances, quick footwork and demonstrable power and speed in strikes.

    I might just be a kung fu nerd but I think a lot of practitioners are the same. Which is ironic really. :D
     
  19. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I completely agree, and am of the same mind. However, sometimes one has to impress the masses, and so we adapt what we do to that purpose. The German demos you saw are from less than 1% of the total student count in Germany, to provide a prospective on our priorities. Some people really love the flashy stuff, and as long as they have everything else down, we support them--we don't supplant our core teachings with it--rather it is available for those who want to do more.
     
  20. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun

    Well, when students are what drive your school, you have to give the masses what they want. That's the only way to survive, if your're lucky, you find a few diamonds in the ruff. Those are the next generation, and you try to instill everything into them for the preservation of the art.

    Luckly my sifu doesn't need to teach, he's pretty nice off from hard work when he first arrived in the US. So our training doesn't play to the masses, but to his love to pass on Hak Fu Mun as a fighting art, not as a performance art.


    jeff:)
     

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