Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do Resources' started by ronmeister, May 12, 2003.



  1. WTF < ITF

  2. ITF < WTF

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Thank you, glad you enjoyed it. The nice thing about WTF/Kukki organization is that it is pretty wide open for what people are interested in. I know of many pure sport schools, in fact when my school opens it will be a competative school, but there is also the more "traditional" side that focuses on patterns, breaking, self defense. Well rounded schools will offer all of this in some capacity and I believe that it is typical in the majority of schools falling under this umbrella.

    The reason why so much hype is done on olympic sparring is that it is basically our flagship. It gains us the most public response, negative or positive, and is essentially seen more often than any other part of TKD combined. Simple fact is that we do in fact share the same values as other "federations". I would actually like to pose this question to all the WTF/Kukki school instructors/owners/participants and ask for a rough estimate in terms of how many students from your school actually compete and train strictly to win at olympic competition. My guess is that this will be a very low percentage as all demographs of people are represented in TKD and most simply don't have the interest to pursue a competitive career . . . but the breaking and patterns is where its at!

    In terms of the breaking in the video, seeing as this is an international competition there is to be some showmanship involved, coming from a performance and theater background anytime you have judges involved in a competition, it's usually a good idea to play to them a little bit ;). I can assume that because of the nature of the video as well that some training did go into setting up the breaks and practice of them, but on the whole I do agree that you should basically be able to break when needed.

    From my personal experience, when I am performing a demonstration and am asked to do breaking I usually set up the standard ones and really don't worry about practice for those, but more of the complex sequences I will set up and run through a few times . . . except for bricks . . . . I just set those up and smash them, one attempt is good enough for me, succeed or fail (never missed actually, knock on wood). Otherwise breaking is simply a demonstration of technique.

    I will disagree with you on one point. Some of the breaks where the gentleman threw himself into the air and crashed down takes both courage and technique. Imagine doing the break and not have good technique, say for instance a slight bend in the wrist, that may make for a bad day and I can almost guarantee that you won't want to move onto the next break with a compound fracture. In this instance I would say it takes a whole lot of courage, but your technique has to back up your courage or the only thing breaking will be bones.

    I found another example of some breaking. Little bit longer in duration but shows some more variations of techniques. Watch the gentleman at the 4.20 mark. That is a great example of technique and an effortless break, puts the younger guys to shame with the ease and relaxation demonstrated. Sorry I don't know what year this is from, but hope you enjoy.

    [ame=]Hanmadang breaking[/ame]
  2. cathycasi21

    cathycasi21 New Member

    So quick question, in WTF sparring are you allowed to block kicks? or is it just not advised? and I was reading some of the posts and all I have to say is..What's wrong with being CAnadian? lol. I know most of the tkd's here are WTF. There's only 1 ITFplace that I know of here. I personally think that There's no wrong or right martial art in general but there may be a wrong or right martial art in each individual.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2007
  3. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Of course you are allowed to block kicks in WTF. Defense should be done on two scales: movement and blocking.
  4. cathycasi21

    cathycasi21 New Member

    Thanks Artikon:). I just started TKD thats why I was curious because in videos I didn't see any blocking.
  5. TKDTraditional

    TKDTraditional Valued Member

  6. Nelleh

    Nelleh New Member

    well if your looking at the sparring side wtf taekwondo full stop .
    If your looking to do taekwondo for self defence wtf taekwondo again.
    If you wanna look fancy with your leg in the air jumping around the garden on a hot sunny day then yep itf is for you.
    WTF taekwondo sport side of the art is an olympic sport, theres more competitors fighting at the dutch open then there is at the itf world champs.
    there was over 50 countries at the dutch open with over 1300 competitors.
    Its alot more technical then itf, with 3 rounds and breaks inbetween to talk tactics with your coach and try and beat your opponent. The kicks are faster and its full contact, not semi contact like itf. You dont get disqualified when you kick someone in the face and knock them out, you actually win in wtf taekwondo..... which in my eyes is supposed to happen in any martial art.

    For self defence is definately wtf taekwondo, as i just said itf is semi contact, so when the time comes to you actually hitting someone, you will naturaly pull the kick you've done. where as in wtf taekwondo if anyone was to start a fight you would just let your leg go and smash the guy in the face full on.

    so there we have my reasons why itf taekwondo should fold and why wtf is by far the better side of taekwondo. Personally i find itf an offence to taekwondo.
  7. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Personally as a WTF guy your reasoning and overgeneralization shows a lack of experience.

    WTF =/= art therefore =/= self defense. WTF = sport competition sparring plain and simple.

    ITF is a different flavor but that doesn't mean that their self defense is any less than WTF (as stated before WTF is a sport). If you want to see hard ITF watch anything from Poland.

    PS: I've seen plenty of WTF guys jumping around in a garden in their angry white pygamas. Letters on a dobak =/= stereotype.
  8. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    i guess, it all comes down to the club you're training at, obviously Nelleh trains at a good school where she gets all of it, sparring, full contact, self defence etc.

    the same in my case. we did all of it at my instructor's school and now we do all of it at my school too. and that is why i would always vote for wtf too. get what i mean?

    on the other side, it's the wtf that takes part at the olympics and not itf, and why is that?
  9. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    True Neryo, there are some killer gyms out there, but I suppose the point I'm getting at is that judging a whole organization based on the observation of a few good schools is ignorant. I'm always for upping the WTF, but I don't feel that there is a need for saying that the ITF is an offense to TKD. Pride in oneself and organization is great to a point, but when it breeds either ignorance or ego then it becomes and issue.

    As for the WTF that takes part in the olympics . . . well of course they were actively pursued the goal. Made it an agenda of the organization upon creation, and the rest is history.
  10. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    i completely agree :)
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Look for the school, not the federation, concentrate on the teacher, the most important part of a school, no matter the art or style!
  12. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This Kickchick is just so wrong. The ITF was founded in Seoul Korea, which is the Capital city of south Korea on March 22, 1966, more than 7 years before the WTF was formed in 1973. The roots of the ITF go to the military kwan co-founder by Gen Choi Hong Hi & Lt. Nam Tae Hi, who later rose to the rank of Colonel before retiring. The Oh Do kwan was formed in 1954, under the leadership of Gen Choi. ITF TKD was not introduced to NK till the fall of 1980. The ITF sent the late Master Park Jung Tae, then a 7th Dan to north Korea where he taught a special 7 month course from feb to sept of 1981. This course graduated the 1st NK IIs, who later played an important role in spreading original TKD to many socialist & communist coutries around the world, including China & the former Soviet Union.
  13. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    There is virtually no doubt that gen Choi submitted the name TKD which was approved on April 11, 1955. The only doubt is the story that GM Son Duk Sung tells that he gave the idea to gen Choi. Now this must be taken in context. There is some doubt that GM Son was even the legitimate 2nd Kwan Jung Nim of the Chung Do Kwan, contested by the current president of the KKW & subsequent Kwan jang Nim of the important early school of Korean Karate. What is well known is that GM Son & Gen Choi did not get along. This probably goes the the fact that GM Son was not allowed to be on the 1st TKD demo team to abroad in 1959, as he was not military & Gen Choi called the shots. Keep in mind GM Son wrote a book & never made this claim in it. When interviewed by Dr. Kimm He Young, a noted PhD in history, GM & professor he never made that claim either. Many pioneers say that the term was based on knwledge of Chinese characters, which Gen Choi had as a prize winning caligraphist.

    As to Gen Choi not creating TKD I guess that depends on what your definition of TKD is! The Oh Do kwan called it TKD from 1955, while few others did. Those in the Oh Do kwan founded a system they called TKD, using talented soldiers who had experience in the various fighting disciplines of that era. This of course was under the leadership of Gen Choi & his chief instructor Col Nam. Few others in SK called it TKD. In fact after KTAs were formed in SK by Gen Choi in 1957 & 1959, the other kwans that participated left. In 1961 another KTA was formed & they called it Tae Soo Do. So we see that it was not till 1965 when Gen Choi returned from his diplomatic post as an ambassador that he was elected 3rd president of that KTA & changed it back to TKD. He also authored the 1st book on TKD in 1959, with an english version completed in 1965. For some, they did not use the name TKD till the KKW was formed in 1972 or the WTF was formed in 1973. Finally in 1978 when the Kwans were retired & numbered, most of the others started using the name TKD.

    So look at it as you like, but TKD was a system devised in the ROK Army by military soldiers. Few used the name till the above referenced dates until the passage of 10 to 23 years. This was of course long after the new Art of SD was made popular by the original TKD pioneers. The name was simply co-opted by the KKW & WTF 2 decades later. They of course did not adopt the military system of SD, but rather emphasized a new sport with rules developed by the Ji Do kwan. The great work they did to develop the martial sport under the leadership of Dr. Kim Un Yong did result in Olympic status! I guess they just took the name because the groundwork was already done for them. Of course the brutal military dictatorship in SK under Gen Park Chung Hee set out to destroy the ITF & Gen Choi! They almost succeeded. We see now the truth is finally coming out, especially with the help of the web & the fact that SK is now a democracy.
  14. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    There were virtually no MAs in Korea during the occupation. When WWII ended & Korea was liberated on Aug 15, 1945, some Koreans who learned some MAs, basically Karate in Japan, opened Korean Karate schools. When the military kwan was established in 1954, soldiers who studied Karate, wrestling, Judo/Yudo, Aikido/Hapkido, boxing etc formed the basis of TKD with the biggest influence being karate. Now few outside the Oh Do kwan, with the main exception being chung do kan members loyal to gen Choi used the name TKD. The others did Korean karate with some using various names to distinguish it from Japan. They of course did not follow the system devised by the military soldiers. They continued karate, adding various aspects over the years with their big difference being the sports rules & of course later their own set(s) of forms, which were also still similiar to karate.
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    If you read it in books you paid for, ask for your money back, as they lied to you!
  16. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    When Korea was liberated from Japan's rule at the end of WW2, Rhee Seung Man was supported by the USA & became the ROK's 1st president. He lasted till the early 60s, when corruption forced him out. An interim govt last just a short time when Gen Park Chung Hee led a military coup on May 16, 1961. Gen Choi, being of the same political party as President Rhee enjoyed a lot of power as a major general in the ROK Army. He at first supported Gen Park, but when Park did not turn the govt to the people, Choi slowly resisted him. This led to a loss of his power & influence. As a result he was 1st forced out of the military & sent abroad as an ambassador. When he returned in 1965 Park was already establishing himself as a strong dictator that ruled with a brutal hand, creating a dreaded KCIA which increasingly violated human rights. By 1972 Choi was in danger of arrest & worse. He exiled himself to Canada that year, moving the ITF with him. A year later the WTF was formed. Once in Canada, Choi eventually became a Canadian citizen, affording him free travel & opportunities to become a leading & very vocal critic of the military regime back in his homeland.
  17. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    There were many lies, fabrications & streching of the truth to hide the connection of TKD to its true roots, which was mainly karate from the hated Japan, due to their brutal occupation of Korea for a half century. No way would Korea's MA, their national MA & national sport be allowed to connect to Japan!
  18. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Actually some of her points are incorrect, see above, you correctly quote 1973 as the formation of the WTF, in May actually, 7 years after the ITF, which was 1966.
    The feuding of the kwans, not WTF/ITF goes back to pre 1955. There were unsuccessful attempts to unify the Korean karate schools before Gen Choi came on the scene.
    All 3 ITFs now have representation in SK.
    Your sources quoted above btw are WTF slanted & maybe why you use 37 BCE that is obvioulsy wrong & I believe much of Kickchick's post is from Dr. S. Capener, which is a good source worth reading.
  19. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Not sure if you are using principles & philosophies interchangeably, but the philosophy of original TKD comes directly from Chinese scholars & philosophers along with great Korean patriots, heros, leaders, educators & scholars.
  20. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    1st Gen Choi reports earning I & II Dan BBs in Karate while in Japan. This was more than 9 years before he formed the Oh Do kwan in 1954. I understand that military records in Korea confirm this, but it could of course be the result of him self reporting it. I heard that Japan has records indicating he earned a brown belt. Dr. Kimm He Young verifies he taught karate in Japan, but not his rank. In fact their were 10 kwans that unified on Aug 7, 1978, not 9. Don't get too hung up on rank in those days, as few if any had actual papers to back up their claims & speedy promotions happened often. Of course Gen Choi's honorary rank was revoked, but that was by someone who also expelled the next Kwan Jang Nim of the CDK & current president of the KKW, including other notable Korean martial artists. So take that with a grain of salt. There is no verifiable link that I know of for MDK to anything Korean. Hwang Kee, an important Korean MA pioneer & founder of an early original kwan lived in China for a while & came across a karate book that had katas in them. I am not aware of any other link to any native KMA. Taek Kyon, which is Korean, was more of a folk dance or game than a MA. btw there is also no independent verification that Gen Choi knew that either. Of course lack of verification of an illegal activity in an occupied country, then ravaged by a civil war is quite understandable. Things were different back then.

Share This Page