Wrists hurting from breakfalling?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by JamesR, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The judo guys also know all the dirty tricks to make their throws for combat anyway like landing on top with elbow into liver or throat, or pulling violently up on the arm to cause over rotation so that the tailbone hits the hard ground.

    I agree with you aikiwolfie. In training, there is the bit where you allow for your training partner to perform ukemi to protect themselves while they allow you to get the feel of doing the technique. At the same time the partner is stealing the technique from you and looking for times when they could counter.

    Also, pile driving someone into the ground head first is not combat training if you leave all sorts of holes in the application where you could be countered. Combat or severe technique is done so much faster (3 times faster) than regular training speed that there is no opportunity for counter or ukemi.

    Most of the time severe technique is practiced at very slow speeds so that every movement is done with control. This might be what YouKnowWho is referring to. Just slow speed technique practice of severe technique... in this manner there should not be as many opportunities for counter when done at 3 times normal speed.

    The combat versions of most judo throws are the sacrifice throws. Because you are going down with the enemy, you can go faster and give them less ability to counter. If you look at a pile driver done properly, you do not remain standing, you drive down with it so that you end up on the ground same as the enemy, only they land on their head. Even so, neck breaks happen as the enemy is falling by not allowing them to fall correctly, instead you are twisting their spine during the moment they first start to fall. This way you can remain standing and let momentum do the work. If you are to hit their head on the ground first, this would be most likely as a sacrifice throw, not one where you remain standing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
  2. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    We're pretty much in total agreement here. Except the part quoted. YouKnowWho clearly described giving uke "a pull" as a means of helping uke. In my experience it just causes damage and discomfort. In fact I'd rank it amongst such enviable training myths as "rolling glass bottles up and down your shins makes them stronger".

    From a Ki Aikido point of view a similar thing is done. But it's not to help uke. It's to flip uke over onto their front for a shoulder pin.
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The "pull" might be taking things out of context as it seems there could be a lot here taken out of context. For example, YouKnowWho stated something about landing on your back during a breakfall in "sport", but we know that you are supposed to land on your side for most breakfalls, but there are SOME breakfalls where you land on your back, some where you land on your stomach, etc. So I just took the "land on your back" as simply an example of one particular breakfall being talked about. The same for a "pull". Most of the time you don't pull on uke UNLESS they push, then you pull them in the same direction they are pushing... "pull when pushed, push when pulled" is a fairly common interpretation of the JU principle in Judo. However, there are times when you can see that uke will land in not such a good position and you can do things to help guide them to land better. Remember koyo had the story of how Chiba Sensei was throwing him and there was no room on the matt (e.g. he was going to land on top of someone else), but Chiba Sensei made an adjustment and threw koyo into the one place on the matt that was open. Then Chiba Sensei said to the amazed koyo, "It's a kind of magic"?

    There are ways that tori could help uke land better, and in some cases that could be with a pull of sorts.

    The rule I learned from Aikido is to commit 95% to a technique, leaving 5% back in case you have to bail out to protect your self or your training partner.

    Anyway, I don't see a pull in these techniques, but I do see allowing uke to use ukemi with some holding back from tori, by either supporting the head and neck or by slowing it down.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKYMiB6Hbk"]Yudo (Judo) Lift and Drop Throw - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu-stmbR7ac"]Yudo Judo Shoulder Wheel Throw - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTkvOZcgkn4"]Yudo Judo Hip Sweep - YouTube[/ame]

    P.S. for severe technique, most of the ways to allow uke to breakfall involve "letting uke go" instead of holding on to them tight. This allows uke to fall as they will to protect themselves. I remember a few times when I thought I was dead during training. One was with my head braced against the hip of one of my instructors as I was falling. He did a sort of hip motion and I felt my neck could snap right there as my body was twisting but my head was not. He released me so I could fall without a broken neck at the last possible moment. I was spooked out by this and even he said that he can't do that full speed again as he went into combat mode and almost did kill me. So we only worked that stuff a slower speeds from then on. After that experience, I usually fall with a hand or two bracing my head and on my side in a fetal position. The neck break as I'm falling is quite the quick scar.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Here are 2 clips for the same throw. It's not hard to see that the throw with pull (or even hold on your grips without releasing it), will give your opponent more comfortable landing. Your pulling can also straight your opponent's arm and easier for you to start your ground game.

    Old saying said, "Keep your friend close but keep your enemy closer." Your pull will always remind yourself "not to release your grips after throw". After your throw, the game is not over yet. The ground game just ready to start.

    1. throw with pull:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxOf5MjQMfk"]throw with pull - YouTube[/ame]

    2. throw without pull: The "arms cover head" break fall can be clearly seen in this clip. The bottom arm is to protect your head as pillow. The top arm is to protect your head incase your opponent's knee or elbow drop on it (it's your head and you need to protect it yourself).

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvLrsEj02KQ"]throw without pull - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    YouKnowWho, good examples of what you mean.

    So now I can clearly disagree that with pull is sport and without pull is combat.

    The purpose of pull or no pull is in scale. If you are a lot larger than your opponent, you can do almost any throw with or without pull, but without pull might feel more natural. If you are much smaller than your opponent, however, you need to throw with control of the limb or else MOST trained fighters will take you down with them. And if you and your opponent are about the same size, you can do either depending on the type of throw and situation, one may be better than the other.

    Yes, people do things to help protect training partners, but the root of these movements still have combat implications if you are aware of them.

    The pull is used to keep control. You can always, jerk up violently on the arm too and cause over rotation so that the enemy lands badly on their tail bone, leaving the back of their head and spine open to a knee from behind.

    Every application can be "combat".

    I would say that applications are "watered down", however, and that knowing the severe technique can help to put things in perspective, such as the need to protect the head and spine. Much the same as I breakfall on my side in a fetal position bracing my head and neck in many situations.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In the beginning of this thread, we were not talking about "ground game" but how hard that we can throw our opponents. Since now we have concern on both subjects at the same time, the consideration is more general.

    - Without pull, you can throw your opponent harder. After you have released your grip, you can run like hell before cops arrive.

    - With pull, you can remain control after your throw. You can start your ground game there.

    Both have "combat" value.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No you cannot throw harder without pull. The hardest throws are sacrifice throws where you go down with your opponent. These are neither with our without pull as you both are on the ground at the end.

    The combat rule I was taught was you throw people into things. What you call without pull was to throw someone into a cement column, a brick wall, or something solid. With pull was basically to throw someone to the ground.

    There are plenty of techniques where you have to keep hold of the opponent in order to break their neck or to get their head to land on the top of your knee on the way down. Are these considered, "with pull".

    You can let go after the enemy has hit something, be that a wall, the ground, your knee... if you let go before that, they can recover and grab you and take you down with them more easily, IME.

    I trained with guys more than twice my size. The without pull does not work against much bigger opponents if they are allowed to grab on to you.

    This is just my opinion, take it or leave it.
     
  8. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Just watched that clip. Uke still slapped the mat as usual. The hand only came up near the head after the breakfall was completed and definitely after initial impact with the ground.
     
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You are right. These 2 small clips may be more clear:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svz7DB4z1Sc"]embrace - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJuPvSkbXJY"]outer bow - YouTube[/ame]
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Let me help out a bit here on the throws. Here is the Judo version of the throw in the above video.

    Ushiro Goshi with pull:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lJkLrQMEpQ"]ushiro goshi - YouTube[/ame]

    Ushiro Goshi without pull:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9JlPTDr5EQ"]Slam Dunk - YouTube[/ame]

    Thing is that I see both of these as more effective than the one in the video where the uke is thrown up in the air and is allowed to land on their feet.

    The second is the "severe technique" version of the first where you do not allow the opponent to land well. Both exist in Judo.
     
  11. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Point 1: At that time Chiba Sensei was already a highly skilled and experienced martial arts practitioner. So far as I know he was training full time with the Aikikai at the time.

    Point 2: From what I can gather from that story Chiba simply redirected Koyo's direction of travel. Which is pretty much an integral part of many Aikido techniques any way. And most importantly, a slight adjustment in technique doesn't interfere with a break fall in the way that holding onto someone and pulling on their arm does.

    Sorry. I'm not convinced.
     
  12. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    So far as I can see the point of the "pull" in those videos is to retain control and balance. Not to give uke a nice landing.
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Severe technique (ara waza) is done three time faster than normal speeds. This could also be looked at that the time between start and injury is 1/3 the time, so rather than land someone on the ground, on the way down to the ground, the spine is twisted. What also makes severe technique is not allowing the opponent to perform ukemi.

    You cannot breakfall to save yourself from severe technique as you are not given the opportunity to fall correctly. IMHO, YouKnowWho is correct is saying that you have to protect your head and spine.

    Protecting your head and spine, however, is not for the fall but during the fall. This is not clear to me if YouKnowWho is talking about protecting the head and spine during the fall or just at the point where you hit the ground. I feel it is equally important to realize that as you are falling, you could impact into a knee, a hip, or a wall or a something solid, and you could have your spine twisted in a bad way during this fall... you would be dead before you hit the ground.

    For the most part, though, to save yourself from severe technique, you must counter it.
     
  14. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    During the fall.

    If you look at this clip again, the moment that my body was up (yes, that person had been thrown was me), my left arm covered my head right at that moment.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJuPvSkbXJY"]outer bow - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is an short beginner level Chinese wrestling break fall clip to share.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phUk6vMERjo"]SC break fall - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
  15. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Going by the level of escalation in severity you've classed as sever technique thus far, I'd have to say countering is the only reliable escape for such techniques.
     
  16. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    That's not what I see happening there. Your free arm doesn't make this "pillow" until you roll away after you land. Until that point the position of your arm is really no different than what I would consider a fairly standard high ukemi in Aikido.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrtiSx5HHHk"]Aikido - Dunken Francis - UKEMI high break fall - YouTube[/ame]
     

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