Wrists hurting from breakfalling?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by JamesR, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    What does that even mean lol - We generally use English for the majority of things in my club

    Found out - Ukemia = Breakfall techniques

    Waza = Technique
     
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Your training partner should not have any intention to hurt you in the 1st place.

    The Gi should be used to protect your training partner. For example, if you grab on your opponent's front leg, hook his back leg, and push his shoulder at the same time, not only your opponent will fall backward very hard, since both of his legs are in the air, he can only land with his head and neck first. If you can use your hand to hold on his lapel, you can gently put your opponent's upper body down. Not only you may have a long term training partner, you may even earn yourself a lifetime friend who will always trust you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Common sense, I can't speak thai, so I don't use thai terms. Hence Superman punch:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Not all arts are judo.

    There are schools, particularly older koryu jujutsu, which include techniques where it is incorrect or functionally impossible to guide your partner to his back. It falls to him to land in a way that does not injure him. A great deal of this is him learning to escape bad-intentioned jointlocks.

    Your suggestion to hold your partner to rely upon him for protection is setting people up to take the worst makikomi ever. Broken ribs can kill you. Of course you shoudln't put your partner in undue danger during training, but providing systemic protection which breeds arbitrary habits specific to that protection method is very dangerous not only in actual fights but in competition with schools with different philosophies. If someone hugged me or anyone from my school in mid throw during a full-on competition, it would make the landing much much worse as we throw for effect, and that moment where uke hits the mat and tori hits uke is where that effect generally happens. The best thing one can do besides foul the throw is recieve the throw smoothly and with enough space to frame before impact.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  5. righty

    righty Valued Member

    You need to have a read of your own link there. You have the location of the deltoid wrong and it is not the strongest in the body.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I didn't say that. I said it your head and you need to protect it. I also said your training partner need to protect your safety.

    There are some throws that may not be suitable to execute with full force and full speed. IMO, you don't need to complete all your throws. As long as your opponent is in the air, the rest is just to let the gravity to finish the job. If for every 5 throws, you use 4 throws to train "how to enter", you then use 1 of the throws to train "how to finish", your body may be able to train more repetation in each class.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  7. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    My bad, I was getting your point mixed up with what Teamnemesisbath said.

    The last paragraph in my last post ought to be disregarded then.
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Did I show the wrong picture? I only know it's called "triangle shape muscle" that connect 3 bones.

    [​IMG]

    translation:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When you are thrown,

    - hold your breath,
    - tight your muscle,
    - use the back of your "triangle muscle" to land,
    - if you use your arm, when both you and your opponent's weight land on it, it's very dangerous.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...25_yTvrQKsfM2AW8iJGzAg&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAA&dur=31

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...25_yTvrQKsfM2AW8iJGzAg&ved=0CC8Q9QEwAQ&dur=37

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...5_yTvrQKsfM2AW8iJGzAg&ved=0CDMQ9QEwAg&dur=192
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  9. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Yes, these pictures show exactly where the deltoid is. And that it is not just located 'behind the shoulder'. You would also find that if you landed first on the deltoid, even the rear or dorsal side of the deltoid that this is too far towards the tip of the shoulder for safety and still risk shoulder and collarbone injury when falling.
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This kind of break falling has been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years. I know this is different from the Judo break fall. Since this thread is in the "General Martial Arts Discussion" session, I though may be people can see break fall from a different angle.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMkKgm7pGbU"]chang tung sheng, Il grande maestro della nostra arte - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    As I said before it'll depend on the system.

    Kurtka Jerker summed it up nicely in the first paragraph of his post.

    Yes we can generalise to a degree about how to fall but some systems work differently, have a different outlook and method for training.

    Anyone tried break falling whilst wearing two swords or even just a short sword?
     
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Ah sorry sometimes I forget what forum I'm in, especially with subjects like this.
     
  13. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    There is some excellent advice around breakfalling in this thread , thank you to all contributors . It is good to see sensible and worthwhile debate taking place on MAP .

    Smurf
     
  14. HarryF

    HarryF Malued Vember

    Ah, perhaps I was too brief in my explanation, I didn't mean hugging the other person and bringing them down with me every time, I agree that would make the fall far worse!

    Firstly, the only throwing oriented art I practice is wrestling, which we do on mats. When I referred to training on hard wooden floors, it is related to self defence and Kali, so there are very few 'competition speed/power' high elevation throws done, and therefore it makes sense to be able to counter/deal with a fall on to a hard surface. Obviously any fall during SD or non-sport Kali is undesirable, but we think it is important to be able to deal with that situation.

    With regard to breakfalling on a hard surface, I meant either using part of their body (usually the bit they are throwing with, e.g. arm/shoulder) to slow the fall, or slapping their back (muscular area, not the spine), or, if you do drag them down, redirecting their falling energy (with the goal of a reversal to side control or mount).

    If we are practicing throws or takedowns that are very hard to breakfall (e.g. where both arms are tied up, or there is a high elevation with a landing on the head) then we tend to use gymnastic crash mats...

    Hope this clears things up, I wish everyone the safest of training...
     
  15. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I think I understand what you're saying and while I like counter-takedowns I feel like the original throw must be mostly fouled before you can do them safely.
    A habit of slowing your fall using your opponent can work but only if your opponent is determined not to come down with you or is taking care of you.

    A throw intended to shock or harm an opponent, whether it's a high amplitude judo throw, a jacketed suplex from sambo, or a big lift from a waistlock from wrestling will usually end in the thrower coming down on top of the thrown very hard. When this happens, the usual feedback you get from your grips disappears as the opponent is falling as fast as you are.

    Worst case scenario, uke has developed the habit of not only slowing his descent, but controlling his angle with the grips.

    And again, there are some styles where the majority of the throws are joint-based. They apply a jointlock on the feet, knees or the equivalent of a ref's position and you either foul it or get upside down or your shoulder, elbow, wrist or neck breaks.
    Then you've got to figure out how to get to the ground safely. The "nice" or "considerate" training partner doesn't snap the jointlock the other way when you start tip over to a safe landing. At least not in a committed way, anyway.
     
  16. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Again with the irrelevant comparison. What are you doing falling off a motorcycle during a martial arts class? Is this some new fad?

    I prefer to protect my head by not landing on it. As for a broken arm or leg killing you. That's a very real possibility if the bone pierces a major blood vessel.

    I don't know what system you're doing but your methods sound very wrong. Why get into the habit of trying to save uke when what you're actually trying to do is have them hit the ground with maximum force? I've seen people doing this pulling uke in and holding them up nonsense and I've had it done to me. It doesn't help the ukemi at all.

    What it does do is put uke in danger of landing on their hip. Which is not good. And then there's the fact you're holding uke up by the arm while their inertia continues to carry their body in the opposite direction. Again, that's not a good thing. At least not from my perspective.
     
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you throw your opponent, you can release your grips on your opponent if he is your enemy. You can also give him a "pull" if he is your friend. The option is still yours. In old time wrestling match, both wrestlers would always politely ask his oppponent, "Give me a pull please". It's not only a polite way to start a match, it also reminds the other that this is not a death match.

    I can understand your concern here. In throw, you want to achieve the maximum impact by using your opponent's speed and body weight and also by using your own body speed and body weight behind it. Not only you want to "throw" your opponent, you want to "smash" your opponent instead. Trying to protect your opponent in your training seems to contridict to your original goal. If you can smash your opponent's head into his neck, your job is done. No more ground game will be needed. The problem is how do you train that. To be able to knock down 100 guys daily will build up your confidence in your punching power. There is no doubt about that. The question is will you be able to find training partner who is willing to let you do that day after day?

    This is why the training equipment such as "single head" or "throwing dummy" come in handy. No matter how hard you "smash" it, it will never complain, and I do mean "smash" and not just "throw".

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I still don't agree. It's easier and I'd argue better for the students to adjust the tempo and severity of the training than to start interfering with each others break falls. If padding is needed then you wear padding. If thicker crash mats are needed then you get thicker crash mats.

    A lot of training methods have been used in the past and have since been abandoned because they offered nothing of real value or were found to be counter productive or even damaging. So just because it's the "old way" doesn't mean it's the "best way".
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    There is clearly a difference between "sport" training and "combat" training. You should train both but safety is important. For some throw, it doesn't matter how much padding that you have, you will still get hurt. Take the most basic "hip throw" for example.

    In

    - "sport", if you complete your throw, your opponent's body can end with a perfect rotation. he will then land on his back.
    - "combat", after your have lifted your opponent's body upsite down, you stop your throw (throw your opponent 1/2 way), move your body to the side, and allow your opponent's body to slide down by himself with head down first.

    In

    - "sport", you try to make your opponent to land safely.
    - "combat", you want your opponent to land on his head "only".

    When your head go straight down to the ground, the amount of padding won't help very much. Even you wear football helmet, you may still get concussion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  20. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Your combat version seems as though it gives your opponent an opportunity to escape.

    I have no interest in martial arts as a sport. I've watched Judo on TV during major competitions like the Olympics. Didn't seem like they were offering safe landings. I don't see why it matters. Sport or combat, our uke must survive to train again. So their really shouldn't be any major differences in training where breakfalls are concerned. Such irrelevant distinctions introduce unnecessary complexity.
     

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