The following is a post I made on another forum, but I thought a few of you here might find it interesting. Sorry it's so long. ------------------------------ Okay, I've been putting off writing this for a while but it's been almost a week so I might as well just write it. Last week I finally got to do some more submission grappling, this time with my uncle. I'm sure I've said this before, but he used to do TKD, then moved on to hapkido, and then did MMA with me for a while. We grappled for a while and then I tapped him out with a wrestling move from the bottom referee's position. He then asked me to show him some of the stuff I learned in wrestling, specifically takedowns. When I was showing him escapes from bottom referee's positions, he asked me to let him try one. He did a stand-up (a technique used to get back to your feet from that position, obviously). Before I go, I should probably explain what the referee's position is. (Skip the next paragraph if you're lazy and/or KJJ, or you already know what it is) The referee's position is where one guy is down on his hands and knees, while the other wrestler is behind him. Assuming the top wrestler is on his opponent’s left side, he places his left knee to the opponent’s side and his right foot between his opponent’s feet. The top man wraps one arm around his opponent's belly and places it near the middle. The left hand is placed on his opponent's left elbow. The guy on bottom can receive points for an escape (getting from an inferior position back to his feet, via a stand-up) or a reversal (i.e. rolling the guy on your back so you are now on top). Anyways, nearly all techniques done from the bottom of the referee's position involve first getting control of the opponent's wrist (on the arm that is wrapped around your stomach). For a stand-up, the next step involves clearing your left elbow so they don't use it to control you and then standing to your feet. My uncle saw an opportunity to use one the wrist locks he learned in hapkido. When he did the stand up, he already had wrist control (although he was grabbing my hand instead of the wrist, which is fine). When he stood up, he turned and performed the wrist lock. A wrist lock actually seems to work pretty well in that situation. After we messed around with that for a little while, we decided to see if we could find other grappling situations where wrist locks could be useful due to already having control of their wrist/hand. We found a few others (i.e. if you're sprawled out on top of them and they're still reaching for your legs), but none seemed to work as well as the one from the referee's position. I think wrist locks could prove to be useful on the ground, although we haven't finished exploring possible chances to use them. We also didn't get to pressure test them.
Nice post... here's something I wrote a while ago that applies as well. I think the real "key" is on the entry... these locks should work if the timing and entry is right.
i regularly use the wrist lock as a bridge of annoyance i.e., i use it to free up someone's arm for an armbar when said person is clasping his hands or to help me escape bad positions. wrist locks aid in crossing from one place to another and are rarely an end, but are a means. the only time i have ever tapped anyone with a wrsit lock is when a guy's elbow is pinned to the floor and his forearm is in a vertical position. from that position i press down on the hand. that technique has only worked twice.
Thomas, While I see value in using wrist locks on the ground, I still don't think they are very useful while standing. While on the ground, the opponent can't move freely. While standing, they can move as much as they want, so getting control of their wrist (let alone applying a wrist lock before they break your grip) is very difficult. If I got control of someone's wrist while standing, I wouldn't try and do a wrist lock... I'd go for an arm drag or a 2-on-1.
It depends on how you define "useful". In most cases, we use the application of a standing wrist lock as a transition move into either a takedown (which transitions to either a controlling technique, an extraction, or a submission/damage causing move) or an escorting technique. The escorting technique requires some other form of control... so we may transition into a hammerlock or a shoulder lock from the wrist lock... I can't recall any simple wristlocks that are used as escorting technqiues (i.e. without another joint controlling technique in combination). If you look at a lot of the wrist locks in Hapkido (for example), all of them either go to the ground for a finishing lock or transition into a standing lock wiht multiple points of control (and options for transitioning to the ground or for extraction). That goes along with the "why?" part of standing locks... sometimes we need to exert control over someone without doing any visible damage (I am a teacher and if I strike a student, I would be all done... but a controlling lock/escort could be justified). But again, you can't justrely on a standing lock or a wrist lock with no plan for transition and without planning how you will get into that lock.
I use wrist locks all the time in grappling. (They don't work as well in MMA because everyone tapes their wrists) Wristlocks in the traditional standing sense rarely work because the limb is not isolated and you don't have a solid control position to immobilize the body. They can work to set up your takedown, however. When your opponent feels the lock coming and pulls away, drop level, penetrate in, and take that sucka down. I use a wristlock to finish an omoplata quite often, or as a sucker technique when my opponent thinks I am setting up an armbar.
I've subbed myself with a wristlock. Probably not quite what you had in mind. I use wristlocks as a distraction. Normally people are too worried about what I'm trying to do, and stopping me from doing that, which allows me to try something else.
Wrist locks work best when used in self defence situations, like if sombody grabs your wrist,shirt shoulder arm or whatever its is silly to think somebody will stand there and let you put a wrist lock on. Wrist locks are counters and when done correctly they work when standing very well, Some break you wrist straight out other wrist locks take you down and if you dont go down you wrist breaks. As i said wrist locks are best used for defence from certain attacks and are very affective when standing.
I agree, this is the way we learn them. When done as a defence against a grab they work extremely well, even standing. Most of the locks we do will take the person straight to the ground where they can be controlled either by the lock, or moving to a pinning technique. We do also study attacking methods with locks, but these require the right circumstances to be useful, there is a high element of surprise needed.
Standing locks can work in a self-defense situation, but against another trained submission grappler they are incredibly low percentage.
The only time they don’t work well is when you try to apply the wrong lock for the attack. You can grab someone in identical ways, but the technique they use will be completely different and dependent on the direction of your force. Sometimes a person will act differently to normal when you apply a lock, this is not a problem if you know the variations that suit, but if you continue with the same lock you will fail. If the right type of lock is used, and the practitioner is competent then they will work. Other times where they may not work is when an attacker doesn’t really attack, this sometimes happens in training. The attacker will just grab and lock their wrist. This is unrealistic and won’t happen if there is intent behind the attack. Even in these cases someone skilled will know how to unlock the attackers wrist and still perform a technique.
Thats like using the word "what if" I can also say to you if the person putting the wrist lock on is extremly experianced he will put it on the experianced grappler easy. I think due to the fact that there is counters to counters to counters the outcome all depends on experiance and situation:::: Agree
"The only time they don’t work well is when you try to apply the wrong lock for the attack." If your opponent knows what he's doing, and is actively resisting it is very hard to put a standing wristlock on and actually finish it. This is submission grappling. Your opponent wants to take you down, and keep you there and grind on you and wear you down until he can submit you from a solid position. Standing wristlocks, while valuable self defense techniques, just do not fit into this strategy. They put the cart before the horse. Position should come before submission.
No "what ifs' about it. The thread is regarding submission grappling, not MMA, or self defense, or a barfight. My response was specific to the topic at hand.
Appoligie The way you worded above i thought you meant that if in a self defence situation againts a trained grappler it would be incredibly low. I agree in submission fighting it would be extremly hard to put a wristlock on an experianced grappler. PS: is there such a word as worded
No apology necessary, Trinity. I use wristlocks in the club all the time, and they work like a charm. Mainly because my opponents in the club are unskilled, unprepared, and drunk on top of that. Here's how I should have worded my previous post. Standing locks can work in a self-defense situation, but against another trained submission grappler under submission grappling rules they are incredibly low percentage.
There should be no active resistance. They should be trying to apply a technique, until they try something you don’t need to do anything. Now they could recognise what you are doing, and try to counter your defence. At this stage it is necessary for you to recognise this and change to a more suitable technique. This won’t go on forever, the most experienced practitioner will eventually win the encounter. Locks are very specific, unless you use an appropriate lock against an attack they will be difficult to apply, when you use the right lock properly they are easy to apply. This is where the skill is, not in knowing the locks, but rather reading the intent and applying the lock with the correct timing. It all comes down to kyojitsu.
In a submission grappling match, you are always trying something, and so is your opponent. You aren't just standing there waiting to react. You are simultaneously attempting offense and defense, trying to force an opening and read and set up your opponent. Attempting a standing submission is poor strategy in this type of matchup. You need to establish control, solidify position, and therefore nullify your opponent's offensive and defensive capabilities and capitalize.
Indeed, but at some point you will commit to an attack. This is when the defence will work. It is much like any other defence, you need to know how to exploit the opening, or create the opportunity. I know very few standing locks, most take the attacker directly to the ground where you can control them with the lock or easily move to a pin. Admittedly I’m speaking with a total lack of experience in Submission Matches, but from your description they don’t sound that much different to our Randori.
