Would you quit if you found out the ninja lineages were false?

Okay, so over the years I have heard a lot of noise about the infamous koryu.com saga ... people getting into endless debates about whether ninjutsu is genuine koryu or if it's a modern creation ... lots of people getting worked up over nothing IMO.

I actually know a couple of people who said they would quit training (8 years and 4 years respectively) if there was ever proof that the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu lineage was not genuine. ... I also believe that a very enthusiastic Jinenkan member, Eric Baluja, resigned partly becasue the lineage was not proven! IMO this is a silly reason to quit.

Based on my understanding of the situation there is no proof one way or the other. Ok sure, Mr Skoss and Mr Lowry and the Japanese koryu societies say that there is not enough proof Togakure Ryu is a genuine ryuha and they don't believe the lineage. But on the other hand, there is also no evidence I am aware of that Takamatsu Sensei did invent the school. There's no Smoking Gun to show that he made it up.... So in the absence of proof *either way* why not just have faith?

More importantly ... what difference does it actually make how old the ryu ha is? Really ... is it going to affect how good Takamstsu Sensei was? Does it affect Hatsumi Sensei's great movement? Does it affect YOUR taijutsu? If not, then why worry about it? And why quit over it?

Worst case scenario .... assume Takamatsu Sensei did create Togakure Ryu based on his own experiences and knowledge he gathered. So is that the end of the world? That is exactly how Aikido was formed. It's also how Manaka-Sensei's Jinen Ryu was formed ... just a way to formailze and codify teachings ....

Also, *most* martial arts have origins based on legends that cannot be proven. Wing Chun's origin story with Ng Mui etc. is not true. Does this stop it being a good art? Of course not! Ditto for the legend of the Shaolin Temple and Bodhidharma. He probably NEVER taught any martial arts to Shaolin monks. Why get so worked up over ninjutsu legends being true or not true when so many other martial arts have the same situation???

 

it sure as hell isn't going to get solved on an internet forum so why bother dragging it up....... AGAIN.

Each to his own, my opinion will have no bearing on theirs and vice versa. has no affect on my training, every time i train i see it works, and when you see someone like Sveneric doing it, you see it works very very well... thats more than enough to make me want to keep learning.

think that gives you my answer... popcorn time

 

same feeling here, Hendry, if you are training at all, you need to either get a grip and train and not worry about things that you have absolutely no control over and use the tangible things like training or leave, if you doubt so much it may not be the art for you.


People need to worry about their taijutsu, not about whats happening in the Bujinkan because we sure aint got a hope in hell of changing its course.

 

Exactly!

Not to mention someone like Kacem ... to see him effortlessly deal with guys much much bigger than him and yet so fluidly and with such grace ... that's when you realize what a great art Takamatsu Sensei passed down to us ...

 

Why quit training if the training is sound? Lineage doesn't make the training good, training makes the lineage good.

 

Just an aside Hendry but that's training.. in the dojo Kacem or whoever is showing the correct movement, distance, timing etc.. a fight is messy and wouldn't look much like that.. but the crucial thing is that with a lot of good training the core of the above will be there and of good use... looking for techniques (especially nice fluid ones with cherries on) will get you killed..


on with the show anyway

 

you cheesy git!!

 

well said

 

I voted wrong.
No I wouldn't quit due to lineage. I left an org with lineage to go to one that I knew didn't have it. More for the feeling, the pragmatic approach and I just liked the viewpoint more not to mention the politics.
The training was good and I was happy with it which is what matters.

Its all in what you want right.

 

If I found out the ninjutsu lineages were fake, I'd quit karate immediately.

 

I would say that if it was faked, then Soke Takamatsu must have been the best martial artist in Japan. SO Koryu or not, it works. Nuff said.

 

So if that's the case why hound and make fun of all the "fake" Ninjutsu people we get on here?

 

For me it would all have to depend on the situation.

I've said a number of times that if I found out I was being lied to, mislead deliberately for profit for example, then I'd quit. That would go for any org I was in where the head of it was delivering made up "stuff" and passing it off as something it's not.

However I do not believe that is the case so I'm going to have faith in my seniors and just train.

 

I also would quit karate in a display of solidarity.

 

If someone quit due to not having proof, then he quit prematurely.

 

It would certainly be interesting to see the reaction (and indeed to experience my own) if someone with a seemingly grounded training philosophy and demonstrable ability came here and professed non-X-kan ninjutsu lineage.

However, that's yet to happen. Most of the amusement seems to come from the fact that no-one's yet supplied a backstory which someone here hasn't heard / debunked a hundred times before - no matter how strong your taijutsu, taking the title 'Sensei', sporting modern combat attire and assuming Jackie Chan no Kamae for the YouTube cameras is going to raise a giggle, if not a sigh of exasperation.

As for the topic at hand, not having ever knowingly seen anything from Togakure ryu, even less studied it, I don't see what grounds I would have to stop training. Obviously any exposure my teachers have had to the suspect ryuha will cause their taijutsu to turn to jelly the moment anything is debunked, but it won't be an issue for me personally

 

The Bujinkan is not Koryu...At all..

The Takagi Yoshin Ryu, the Kukishin Ryu and possibly (At a stretch) some others may be..

What was the issue here?

You train in the Bujinkan, not a koryu...It is what it is..And most people who train in it should have realised that a long time ago, so I'd reckon they would stay..

Regards.

 

I think most are aware that Bujinkan is gendai Budo. I think the thread is aimed more at if the Ninjutsu Ryu that the Bujinkan draws on were shown beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false.

 

Aye..Re-reading the title that makes sense..
Although even then, it would be rather alarming if any students of decent standing left..By this time most here should be fairly locked into what they study....

That's not a negative by the way, I'm entirely locked into what I'm doing as well..

But then, I left the Genbukan to come and do this..So I guess that makes me a "yes"...

Thanks and my regards..

 

No, because there is a lot more to ninpo then just Togakure Ryu, and Im actually more in interested in Kukishinden and Shinden Fudo Ryu traditions then the Gyoko/Koto Ryu ninpo related ones. That said these ryu do stand up technically to the majority of other (mostly Gendai) MA that ive seen.