Would You Keep the Belts

Choosing someone of a higher (or lower depending what you want to train) skill level in training helps advance your skills

 

Which makes total sense if you have the belts, actually.

Fair point.

At the same time, that BB is relevant as long as the skill set is relevant. A BB who earned their BB 10 years before hand, then stopped practising (for example) arguably would not be anywhere near close to the standard they once were. So again, the effort put into the training matters more than anything else.

But even in that example, the recognition of grade is for someone else really, not for the person who holds it (unless they need it). And in an art that places such huge value on being competitive and so forth, then presumably a persons' competition record, time spent with continuous training and skills on the mat would make just as much of a statement for itself as the belt.

As I said before, I do get why they are there, I just don't think they're a good thing to have personally.

 

That's a fair point. It would utterly suck if you weren't Mark, but at the same time for me that would show me that I need to spend more time working on my mad ninja skills. So I really don't see much of a problem with that.

I don't know if they do it in no-gi BJJ comps, but presumably you could also factor in previous competitive experience and weight if the need to separate differing people of skill levels is necessary?

No system is perfect admittedly, but that would make more sense to me.

Competitive record, time spent working on mad ninja skills, performance records of students under said coach (etc). If you were really serious about doing well, you could always hold trial periods to assess a persons' ability to explain/promote/help people work on their training. Kinda like when any new person joins a club.

The coral belt reference goes above my head, I'm afraid.

The rest is pretty much as mentioned before.

Admittedly I don't do BJJ (I'd like to, but I don't think there is anywhere I could go without a car), so excuse me if this sounds dumb. But surely how well a person rolls is just as good an indicator as the colour of their belt? The closest example I can give is when I go kickboxing, I can see which guys are gonna cause me more problems to spar with based on how they move, attack (etc). Wouldn't it be the same kind of principle?

I didn't mean to put it at that, but I get your point all the same

 

The kickboxing analogy is alright I guess. However, you stand a chance of hitting the best guy in sparring at your gym. BJJ is different. Because it's slower and more methodical, at no point will a purple belt be in any bad position, or submission attempt from a white belt unless they choose to be there.

How well they roll is a good indicator, however it would only work if they were compared to who they rolled with. I could slay a white belt and look like the best BJJ player in the world, but I'm not!

Also, it depends on their style too, if I can't pass anybodies guard, then do I deserve to be a blue belt if I have the best guard defence? (correct answer is no )

The belts are a good indicator of your overall level. Even if you specialize in say DLR as a purple belt, you will still be able to do everything else to the level of a purple belt.


Hope this helps. I'm really tired so it might not all make sense.

 

Karatesloth - i think bjj in general is quite different to many style in that belts represent skills and ability, put at high levels rarely give up bjj because of the time invested and the founders admit that "a belt only covers two inches of your ass, you cover the rest"

a coral belt is a teaching qualification (well it used to be in bjj), separate from a black belt, because a competition blackbelt might be a crappy teacher
you used to have to go through a coaching course for it (in brazil)

no-gi comps factor in weight and ranks in wrestling, bjj and judo but they still have loads of competitors of varying experience per bracket

i agree with many of the points you said, especially the part on gaining a belt, stop practising but holding the same rank, but i havent met a bjj practionner like that cos its a drain on your life, almost a second job to get a belt.
(also its a bit of a cult with "the lifestyle" (bjj lifestyle) being sold and bought into once you progress up the ranks)

i also agree that there needs to be a board that assesses your skill with criteria like judo has

 

But then in the BJA the Dan ranks have been massively devalued.

Open competition, and having your coaches name associated to you rank seems to be doing a good job of keeping levels high.

 

saying that, i have met a bad judo blackbelt before

 

Considering you preference for one line posts, that must have been really taxing :evil:

I jest of course. That made a lot of sense the way you put it. There's a few bits I guess I hadn't thought of as much.

Thanks

Huh, that would make sense actually. Having previously practised karate under a former national forms and sparring champ (from Namibia) who was actually a pretty awful teacher, I can very much respect the need for that.

What changed?

Fair enough. I can't see that being much of a bad thing in my eyes, but again, I hold the attitude that if someone is good enough to beat you then you need to train more.

I can't really argue against the idea that different credentials do have their place, I'm just not sure that a belt system is the best way forward. Given the usual trappings of gradings (extra cash fees, random tests with ridiculously varying standards and expectations, usual ego and bravado, etc) it makes me even less keen on them personally.

 

I would keep the belts because people like to have a way to track there progression in the art. Also, they need to have some way to measure skill level so they can know who to match up against each other in competition.

 

Haha, it really was! It's difficult man, and almost never worth it. I wrote a few paragraphs for that Mugens Zero guy and he barely acknowledged it :L

 

It's a tough one.. On one hand you have a comptetition based system (in judo you used to be able to win your black belt by beating a certain number of people in a tournament who were ?brown/black belts? irrespective of how long you had studied... it's not this way in Europe anymore.. maybe in America?) where there might be the potential to win your way to the ranking (as was the case in Judo) even if you didn't have a fully fleshed out skill set. Alternatively you have people like John Danaher who might be considered by some a great BJJJ theorist/guru yet I believe that he has never competed.

This is the difficulty... are you trying to develop the skill set or winning athletes? The two ideals don't always match!

LFD

 

My Judo instructor (who also does BJJ) uses the Japanese system wherein if you want to rank you are going to have to compete against people in the rank you are in and eventually start beating people in the rank above.

In other words, the color of your belt reflects more then just the techniques you have learned in the rote learning situation in most dojos, it represents victories over other practitioners with those techniques, who are trying to stop you and get victories themselves.

In that way, the belt system becomes a reflection on the quality and rank of practitioners you have beaten. As well as what techniques you have been exposed to and have an understanding of.

The way he handles it, when I look at someone in the class of higher rank then me I know they proved that not only did the know the technique, they could use it. And it made the idea of working for my belt much more motivating.

This is in contrast to some classes I took when I was much younger. When I was in To Shin Do there would be people in the classroom who had never been in a fight in their life who I know would "know what to do" but COULD they do it? Like if I got up and just started hitting them or trying to submit them would they be able to stop me?

I have no such reservations about the Judokas and BJJ practioners in my club.

With that aspect of Japanese tradition I think the belt system becomes a tool of truly measuring not just knowledge, but success in application, and experience.

This article does a pretty good job of explaining it:

http://dcjudo.com/why-belt-rank-matters/

Furthermore, my kids compete in Wrestling. I have been watching them develop their skills. They can learn some things from sparring with opponents who have been doing Wrestling for many years, but the matches tend to be over fast, so fast that my kids barely get to learn anything. The ranking system helps you more directly measure the skill of the practitioners not just for tournaments but for sparring. Imagine how little you would develop if you were put up against black belts every day who have no vested interest in allowing you to perform any moves on them.

Then compare that to practicing against someone who has the same knowledge that you do?

My daughter will wrestle anyone we put in front of her, and she wrestled a kid who had wrestled for four years. The first two times she did it was comical to say the least as he tied her up like a pretzel. She was not learning anything from that other then perhaps some defensive mistakes not to make.

When she practiced with people in the novice group she learned more. And eventually combined with the instruction she got from our Judo/BJJ Sensei who also understood Wrestling rules she wrestled that same 4 year veteran and created quite a stir when he spent the entire match on the defensive and was completely incapable of pinning my daughter. That's not something she would of ever been able to achieve if she had not spent some time with people her own "rank" for a while.

 

Seriously never? I mean, I feel like he should have taken an in-club comp or two at least!

 

I'm not sure whether you mean a ''comp'' or simply in house randori etc but I don't know. I would assume that he has done some in-house stuff.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/john-danaher

Full Name: John Danaher

Lineage: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie Jr > Renzo Gracie > John Danaher

Main Competitive Achievements: No Record

Weight Division: n/a

Favourite Technique/Position: n/a

Team/Association: Renzo Gracie Academy

LFD

 

Herein lies one problem with BJJ comps etc.. yes it's good to see successful
athletes but it's really sad to see that someone would stoop to breaking a fellow competitor for a bit of dosh. The bit with Lloyd Irving shows us a bit more of what happens when winning becomes ''the only thing''..

Judo had belts, randori etc but didn't seem to have as many problems until it decided to become focused on the Olympics.. I believe that Professor Kano was against judo in the Olympics at first specifically because of this overfocus on winning at all costs.

I don't know what's best but I have to say that as I got older and practiced longer I stopped caring about what I was wearing. Funny when I wrestled the only distinction was what level you had competed at and that allowed you to know what comps you could enter. Karate etc came with belts and the stress of having to stand up and test and hope you would pass in front of friends and family.. BJJ seems to generally be between the two with no real tests/stress from that point of view...

It's going to sound funny but maybe the belt system needs to be re-vamped rather than gotten rid of. Perhaps have a black belt at purple and dan grades at what are now brown and black? BUT with the dan grades being performance based rather than honorary? You could still have the extended dan grades you have now...

Really I like to think that we as adults don't need to have a carrot dangled after a couple years of training... after you have been there 5 or more years you are probably hooked! It's probably been 35+ years since I started training and I haven't been worried about grading for most of that time.. heck I don't even like to put on a uni :' P Shorts/gi bottoms and a t-shirt/rash guard will do me fine!

Just the ramblings of a semi-broken old duff :' D

LFD

 

What would be the point of making the blackbelt easier if you dont care about grades?

 

Nope, but I believe he may have choked out a world champion or two.

 

It used to be white green blue purple, and a few assoc have started doing it again.

 

me?

Right, if this question is addressed to me ...

Belts are useful from an educational point of view to help motivate people. I have no problem with that. Great in schools, universities etc. Sometimes they help adults who are unsure of their performance and need something to get them going..

Easier? Well I guess that what it amounts to is that you have people in BJJ that are at a black belt level by ? purple and they don't get to black belt for a long time. I would think that by purple a lot of people are hooked. If they aren't then they probably won't be. If they are hooked then the belts won't really matter any more. BUT it's a good thing to aim for for the youngsters and it does motivate people. Unfortuantely I am not sure that 10 years is the right length of time if you want to develop the art.

I will train at what I find interesting forever as long as this shell holds out. I would like to think that most serious martial arts practitioners would be the same. The inital belt , in whatever form, just helps peoples initial focus (sometimes). I can do without them but I can see how it isn't really necessary to just throw the whole concept away.

Addenum - Prof Kano only had white and black belts.. it was someone years later that added the couloured belt system, I beleive to help motivate children.

LFD