I am looking to take up traditional Judo here in the D/FW area. However, I have a back, actually a spinal/skeletal disorder called scheuermann's kyphosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheuermann's_disease) which sometimes causes problems due to having a mild case of arthritis in the lower back. Now, I've done Brazilian JiuJitsu before and the only problem I had while doing BJJ was limiting my mobility during grappling, I.E. some techniques where other people have no problem twisting their bodies, I was unable to perform because my body couldn't twist as far. Or during long periods of time being on my back during grappling (which, sadly was quite often lol) it caused my energy to sap faster. I have limited experience being thrown, however the few times I have been thrown it never really felt painful to my back. I am curious if anyone here does Judo with kyphosis and/or it's cousin scoliosis and has problems? Thanks.
I dont have any back problems but one of my mates at bjj came over from judo a couple months ago and had to leave due to back problems. He said it was a persistent thing but I dont think he's ever got it checked out properly so sadly I can't tell you if its the same problem you have. I would say try it but make it known to your sensei and training partners and they'll be able to put less momentum into the throw. If its only mobility problems and not impact ones then you could be fine really might have to avoid a couple of things but its not neccasary to be ableto do every throw in judo to grade or anything.
Question, your classmate in BJJ, have you noticed from looking at him by chance his body shape? With scheuermann's kyphosis, when looking at a person from the side, they tend to stand somewhat at a question mark (?) but not quite as bad. Mr. Burns on the Simpsons for example has it (so to speak). Versus scoliosis where the spine is bent from the front view. If I do decide to take it up I will explain it to the Sensei. I imagine he has seen something similar in his years of Judo someone with a similar problem. The only down side is a good blow to my lower back can pretty much put me out of commission for the rest of a class.
Sounds more like me than him tbh my posture is terrible but I dont think theres a medical reason for me. Guess it isnt scheuermann's for him sorry I didn't check that properly I think you might struggle the lower back takes a fair beating and I got winded or my bakc jarred quite frequently. Have you had any breakfalling experiance?
Hey it's fine, no worries. Any help is appreciated, and I am not gonna jump down on someone who is offering free advice Very little experience. I know some of the basic (if not the only) falls in Judo from my old BJJ days. I never got big into them because our BJJ class mainly did ground work, and whenever we started a bout standing I quickly would just grab the person and fall back into guard to avoid those pesky throws. I've been tossed maybe 2 dozen times, and I can only remember 1 specific time where I did land wrong and suffered a lot of pain in the lower back and just pretty much tapped. Though that was my fault for landing wrong. I didn't put my hands out properly and landed completely flat on my back, with my lower back taking the blunt force of it. Worst I can do is be out $200 and take the 3 month starter class and explain my medical condition up front. If it's a problem, then 3 months later I can leave and know Judo sadly won't work for me and return to just striking arts. If anyone else though here has medical back problems feel free to chime in.
No free first lesson? I'd explain it and try and see if you can pay for just 1 month or something first its not fair for you to lose money. The falling sounds promising though even if I have absolutely no medical background Jump in and start throwing people I guess. Good luck mate
Just out of interest, how old are you and how did you get this diagnosis? Scheuermann's disease often is controversial. It is something that happens when your skeleton is developing and when its done its sorta 'done' developing. The symptoms people get could be related to any residual deformity to the vertebrae but they might also be completely unrelated. Also it is more commonly seen in the thoracic spine. Lots of other things can cause back pain even if you have Scheuermann's. Another reason why I ask your age is that everyone gets tagged as having 'arthritis' causing their pain sometime. How did the practitioner come to this conclusion? I have a sensei in judo who is quite kyphotic and he has always seemed to handle himself well. Moves slightly differently but hey every judoka does to a degree.The training might help you to learn how to fall with less chance of injuring yourself. powchoy
Yeah I can ask about a free lesson. Didn't dawn on me, I imagine they'd let me given my situation if they normally don't do it, let one of the advance students throw me and see if it is a problem. I've thrown some people too, never had any problems with my back in terms of throwing others. I just haven't had much experience being thrown at high force, all the lighter throws I've had were lighter, easier throws where my opponent held onto me to follow up with a technique, arm bar, etc. Anyway thanks for the input. 26 years old, almost 27. I have been to several doctors specializing in spinal, even had an MRI done back in September of last year, which the results came back with the arthritis. I actually have the results next to me right now. I was first diagnosed with it at 18 by 3 different doctors who were going to perform surgery. My mom was going to pay for the back surgery at the time but I refused it, stating that if in the event it ever gets worst, I would get it done. I went back last year to get it looked at, no changes from when I was 18. Yeah, the MRI told me I have a minor case of arthritis in the lower back. MRI test done. Thanks for the input as well.
No rule saying you have to go full force and it'd be good for the other students to learn to moderate their throws
Phil, If you have back problems Judo may be a painful choice. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFM-xRKbSec"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFM-xRKbSec[/ame] It may also be realistic that if a teacher (in whatever are art you end up in) finds out you have this condition may no longer accept you as a student due to liability risks. In addition if you get injured and your insurance carrier finds out you have this condition but picked an activity where you get lifted into the air and thrown on the ground that may be enough ammo for them to deny paying your medical benefit should you be injured during a throw. Could you consider an art without throws or with little throws ?
Watching that video, I can tell you several of the throws are not easy for me. Ohsotogari is going to be "Oh no my back." Kosotogake Ohsotoguruma Kibisugaeshi Kanibasami Yeah, I don't think this will be a good choice. Just watching some of those throws and how the guy fell, landing on his back completely wouldn't work for me. Now that I've seen a lot more of it, I think the decision has been made. Sadly. I really wanted to learn this too, the school is a very traditional Judo school, the kind a person thinks of when you hear Judo. Even the Sensei is what one imagines.
more than meets the eye! MRI scans show the physical condition of a tissue. Pain is not a thing but rather an experience. I know that we have had patients with 'normal' MRI scans of their AC ligaments in their knees where the ligament disintegrated during an arthroscopic exam. I had one patient come in with a severe scoliois and hunchback. I started to tell him I was unlikely to change what was so obviously physically challenged and he said my back has never hurt... I have a sore knee! If I were you I might look further regarding what forms of treatment might be available other than surgery. I am sure my back would look like a mess on a scan or x-ray (lots of history of injury and pain over the years) but I play rugby weekly, judo intermittently and have been doing kung fu for a few decades... things have gotten better rather than worse for a number of reasons inspite of my actual physical condition (52 years old now). powchoy
Yeah I've looked into it, and I found a few options. 1.) Physical therapy, which I tried to no advantage. 2.) Minor steroid injections for pain killing, but I don't want a needle shoved directly into my spine unless it is to save my life. 3.) Surgery. A.) Surgery option A was steel hooks in my back, body brace for 6 months. I'd lose a lot of flexibility (not that I have any as it is). B.) Surgery option B was titanium hooks in my back, no body brace, same loss of flexibility. All doctors said if I did it, my martial arts training days could be numbered as well.
Philbert I don't think I'd be keen on the surgery option myself, unless symptoms were severe enough to cause significant loss of quality of life - which I'm guessing isn't the case if you were even considering Judo. Looking at the video robnj posted, my back hurt just watching it. I don't have any significant back problem (a little bit of kyphosis but only very mild) but I did discontinue ju-jitsu as a result of it making my lower back quite sore. In my case, I was about 33 years old and quite fit. But after repeated throwing every session the whole of the upper border of the hip at the back really ached. I finally re-sprained my ankle (an old injury) in my efforts to take the strain away from my back in a particularly vigorous fall. So that was the end of regular ju-jitsu for me. That doesn't mean you have to stop training though. Surely there are other arts you could get involved in. There are many systems that are primarily stand-up striking arts. With lower back problems I would recommend probably avoid systems with lots of high kicks and/or deep stances. Personally I practice Shorin-Ryu Karate, which is meant to be something that's an effective self-defence system and that you can practice into old age. The stances are high, kicks low. While there are throws they're nowhere near as frequent as in Judo, an intelligent sensei won't be forcing you to be on the receiving end of them simply for your partner's practice. I know there is (old style) Shorin Ryu in Texas. There are of course other arts that would fit the same bill, why not have a good look around and do some research. Good luck, Mike
The one time I injured my back was doing judo. Slipped a disc during a shoulder throw (me doing the throw) when I came back from a bad virus too soon and I think was still weakened. So not totally Judo's fault but you get my point. I think Judo would be one of the harder arts on a bad back. Both throwing and being thrown. Other arts I can see being less stressful would be boxing, Wing Chun, Thai (although neck clinching can be a bitch) etc. Judo would not be my first choice.
Yeah I practice JKD at an MMA school, so we focus on BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, stick fighting, etc. I was wanting to do Judo as a compliment to that art, since they wouldn't really "conflict" with each other, and Judo offered the philosophical aspects I was looking for as well.
