Alright this weekend, my girl Ali and I, was walking and kinda bar hoping with some friends. Later that night me and my buddy Ryan had to deal with a jerk who was antaganizing the girls, I went up to him calmly and asked him to stop. Rudely he asked "Why should I?" (plus some profanity) I said calmly still "It is bother the ladies and we'd wish him to stop." He got up pushed me 3 or 4 times then i standed my ground and he swung at me. First reaction was the basic wax on wax off. But releized i was to late he hit me in the side of the head. I fell to the ground and went for his feet tripped him. Then got back up this time i had time to achieve stance. The stance did not change the guys attitude. He got up and swung at me again. Ducking I grab him took im down into basic grappling. Putting my feet around him trying to achieve control of the arms. He hit me in the face a few time until he started to use 1 arm to choke me. I swung my leg around the front side of his arm and was trying to achieve a "Traingler Headlock" as im known to call it. This did not work so I put my leg down threw my other leg up of the front of his face pried him down into an armbar. Here is where i got lost, should i hold him till he taps (Remeber this guy has a big ego and doesnt seem to want to face defeat) or break his arm. Luckly a bouncer came up pried him loose threw him out. -Theres a lot of mistakes it kinda was wierd and im trying to summarize- Anyway my qestion is what should i of done, thats my first real streetfight situations where i used jujitsu instead of flailing idiot arms aas my Sensei tends to call it. Was The armbar the right move or should I have use my Tai-Jitsu techniques and threw him to the ground gaining control of his arms that way then sumbiting him that way while i had the high ground. Thanks for the comments, I want to listen and learn
My first comment would be not to have gone to the ground with him. My style of ju jutsu tries to avoid the ground as much as possible. We throw or lock to the ground and then lock the person on the ground while we stand up. This way we control them and watch out for anyone else. Does your style have locks or throws against a person pushing you? The defences against a strangle from the front are much the same. I would suggest that this is the time to have stopped the action. The guy had shown he was in an aggressive mood so once the pushing had stopped and you stood your ground, assuming a defencive posture with your hands to protect your head and body would have ideal. The fact that when one thing did not work you changed to another that eventually did work was the thing to do. The big problem as you mentioned is what to do if you don't break his arm. Releasing him and getting back to your feet leaves you vunerable. The ability to get up and still keep a lock on is a good thing to develop even if you have to change to a different lock. remaining on your feet allows for changing and using a lock to get them up is an advantage. Certainly being polite at the beginning was the perfect thing to do.
I'm not a jujitsu guy per se, but I hope you don't mind if I give this a whirl... I really don't see anything wrong with this part. However, since there were already bouncers around, it might have been wise to get one of them involved at this point. A second option would simply have been to leave. But again, by itself, nothing about asking a guy to quit being a jerk really seems wrong. OK, here's where things start to break down. If he's close enough to touch you, you should have your hands up. Go ahead and google "Geoff Thompson", "The Fence", or "Prayer Stance". I could spend an entire post going into detail, but the important part is to realize that you should never let an antagonist get within arm's reach of you. If he invades your personal space and you feel threatened, that's grounds for protecting yourself with a pre-emptive strike. Oh, and one of the reasons that you have your hands up about shoulder or face level is so that when he swings, you'll be ready! Block, cover, crash, whatever, but at least you are better able to respond. It rarely does! If things have already gotten physical, then you've already blown past the stage where posturing could have made a difference. So you took him down but he ended up on top? I realize that not everything in a fight goes like we want it to, but part of a street strategy should be to get a top possition. At the very least, it affords you better visability and a better possibility of disengaging if you need to, um, "strategically withdraw from the field of battle" (or run like Carl Lewis!) If you happen to end up on the bottom, you should try to control the guy's limbs first and foremost, and I'd include the head as a limb here. If you control them, then you know where they are and what they're doing, so there's less of a chance you'll be surprised by a bite, a weapon, etc. Also means less punches to the face for you. Going for the triangle wasn't bad, although I still think getting a top possition should have been a high priority. It might have been a good thing you didn't break his arm, due to the legal consequences that might have followed, but using that technique to get him off of you was a good idea. That said, I highly doubt he would have tapped out. Tapping out is a trained response; if you're not familiar with it, you won't do it. And people who instigate fights really never expect to be defeated. Otherwise, it would be irrational for them to start fights in the first place. It sounds to me like a recurring problem you experienced was having your brain short-circuit, trying to decide what to do. Randori/sparring with resistance can help to solve that problem. Also, investigate what happens in most ego fights (like the one you just had), and try to center your self-defense training around that. I refer you again to Geoff Thompson. Buy his book "The Fence", or "3 Second Fighter", or "The Art of Fighting Without Fighting". I recomend them in that order. If grappling is your primary strategy in a fight, I'd again recomend training to escape the bottom possition or attain the top possition. Pinning and controlling techniques may be helpful. If you're going to use sub. holds as finishing techniques, emphasize the chokes and de-emphasize the joint locks, at about a 90%-10% split. Putting someone to sleep for a few seconds is a much better option than snapping their arms, especially when they aren't trained enough to know that they're in danger. Hope this is helpful.
I dunno. I'm surprised the bouncers didn't throw you both out. I'm sure the guy didn't change his mind - he'd just punched you in the head... why would he change his mind? If anything... he'd figure since he pasted you once then a second time wasn't going to be all that hard. He was right... as he got you a few more times as well. I'd say you're 'entry' skills needs some brushing up. The fact that he was able to push you three or four times says something is all wrong to begin with. It's should have been: 1) idiot winds up to push you... 2) BANG! you preempt his push with a strike 3) he goes down... you then submit him or restrain him That he pushed you three or for times was ample opportunity wasted trying to chest up to someone who obviously isn't listening to reason. If he was... he wouldn't have been acting like an ass in the first place. That he was using his arms to push you and not punch you initially tells me that you should have gone about moving off his centerline. There are a myriad of things you could have done... he goes to shove and you slip a knee into his groin or solar plexus... he goest to shove you slip to the outside and come up with an uppercut or liver shot... he goes to shove and he's got to bring his hands back to shove again right... you follow his hands back with stiff jab and a right cross... he winds up to shove and you step in and do an outside reap while pushing his chin/throat up and back - he falls lands on the back of his head and BANG! he's out. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. It sounds like some alcohol may have been involved on your part as well. The whole chivalry thing mixed with alcohol usually ends up in an ass beating of epic proportions. Anyhow - sum total - if the guy manages to push you three to four times as your 'standing your ground'.... you've already lost... he then further punches you in the head and you go down... lost again.... you're lucky he didn't manage to catch you chin or you'd have been KO'd and bootstomped. Seriously bro, you need to work on you entry skills or lack there of.
If you think any sort of physical confrontation is likely, then raise your hands, palms forward out in front of you , at chest level in a conciliatory "I don't want to fight" type gesture.. If he comes at you then your hands are already up in a guard position. A lot better than bringing them up from your wasit, and certainly a lot better than taking some sort of 'bruce lee' im gunna whoop-ass you stance The fact that he was able to hit you with a roundhouse after having shoved you shows you that you were unprepared. Did he have you off balance after the shove? As the above poster said, after the first shove you should have gotten off of his centerline and taken him out. A defence we practice against a shove is to bring our hands up, palms together and then move our hands apart, deflecting up and outward, then with one hand wrap your arm around his and go in for a reap - or something similar... If you're shoved or pushed, go with it, to keep your balance if you can. Once he scored a free hit on your head you were very very lucky he didn't take you out completely. As it was, you managed to subdue him and thats good.
Hi Dropbear I need to check with you on the history of Sensei Dunn. Can you drop me a line on my email please?
Well my first response was to use Tai Jitsu, kuzushi (break his balance achieve superior ground) then put my knee behind his sholder and use atemi (pressure points) but i have had a couple of drinks and thought to be the bigger man. But I feel that i should have not use my arts for stupid situations such as that. Is it discraceful is it bad pr is it good, is jujitsu realy something to be used on the streets. tho lol my friend being as stupid as he is never seen an armbar before i was kinda shocked when he told me that... -Again excuse my typing im not a computer person=
I hate to double post, but when he shoved me I was more shocked and disgrunted. Not sure what to expect, as I didnt want to make a scene and I did not want to start a fight. I should have got into basic stance, and used some basic throwing technqiues making sure that he was on teh ground. But again this a bar not a movie theater you know what i eman i wanted it done and over with so throwing him around is not a good idea. Plus they have good long islands there i didnt want to get thrown out lol Keikai-Tsutsumi Keikai-Tsutsumi your qeustion Yes my style of jujitsu is based on ground grappling achieving power on your back. no not gracie jiujitsu that guys a moron. but Budoshin juhitsu which is like ground combat jujtsu. I hate how jujitsu has split into so many groups. but basicly its original japanese ground figting. And do a little research on Tai Jitsu interesting. We should talk more
again - it seems that alcohol may have affected your priorities and your judgement not to mention your timing. A few things to ponder: 1) Did you really think that by confronting him it was going to somehow evolve into a big warm and fuzzy group hug? Of course it was going to become a fight. You should have realized that from step one. 2) Again - that you confronted him yet were shocked and disgruntled when he pushed you repeatedly shows that you had no business being in the situation in the first place. You basically rocked up up without a plan... without the proper mindset for a confrontation. 3) From what you've posted it appears you judgement may have been alcohol impaired and you thought you had a chance to test out your JuJutsu. There is pretty much no worse time to test out techniques than after a couple of drinks... very bad idea. 4) That you're making exscuse for why you didn't throw him around doesn't really come off very well. You had every indication it'd become fight and yet you were hesistant - either through impaired judgement (eg. alcohol) or through inexperience (eg. lack of street fights). It should make prescious little difference the venue your in... getting pasted because you're worried about the venue is silly. Hmmm.... Let's see... you get into a situation that could turn into a fight... you don't see that... you get pasted... then you don't manage to effectively do anything... you waffle around a bit about the circumstances etc... but the Gracies are morons. Brilliant logic.
Im sorry that was uncalled for, going off topic for a second have you seen his advertising campaign reach black in 3 years. I geuss if your some guy who wants it for the belt then yea but why would you even want to teach a martial art that way. Remeber ART takes time
My understanding is that there have been many different styles of ju jutsu from the beginning. The figure 700 odd comes to mind with regard to the number of styles of ju jutsu by the end of the samurai era. With regard to Tai Jutsu I understand it is an old name for ju jutsu along with yawara. Some of the old styles called it Tai Jutsu. I must admit that the concept of going to the ground as a first choice is alien to my way of thinking. My style lacks in the area of ground fighting and could do with some training in that area but I firmly believe that trying to remain on your feet throughout a fight is the better option, particuarly in a bar. With a number of his mates around it could have been very nasty for you. Having seen first hand the permanent brain damage suffered by a person who got knocked to the ground and then kicked alot I always teach to remain on your feet as much as possible. I guess the real lesson to be learned from your experience is that if we are going to have a polite word to a pest be ready for the worst reaction from the beginning. Don't get too close and don't let them get within fighting distance. Happy to see you survived with minor damage and a little hurt pride.
Yeah, it's always a bit different when you try to use something outside the dojo. My initial reaction reading this was that you must've been pretty drunk. Out of interest, does your school spar, do randori or other kinds of pressure testing? It sounds like your situational awareness could do with some brushing up. This is something some schools drill a lot and some don't (hell, some teach X-blocks for knife defences ). I'm sure the booze had a bit to do with that, but it's still something to work on. Read this and this and try to get your instructor to drill some of the stuff in there. You might want to think about drinking a bit less next time you're bar-hopping too Remember - next time keep your hands up! Also, I'd personally have not taken him down and rolled with him. I grapple pretty well, have won some comps etc, but if I'm in anything but a competition or training, my first thought is to get up, especially if I'm on my back. If you can cinch a triangle, you can also kick him in the face or chest, push away and get yourself back up. This bit, however, has me worried Slap yourself. Slap yourself hard. Do it again. Now repeat after me - "I will never again consider using pressure points in a fight. Ever. I promise." I'm glad you came out of this OK. Like I say, it's always very different outside the dojo, but my main reaction to this is that maybe your school could stand to do more pressure testing and some more HAOV self-defence drills (sucker-punches, grabs etc JJJ is usually pretty good with this kind of stuff). Some standup training wouldn't hurt either, if your first thought is to take it to the ground
From the sounds of it clubs/bars around your area sound pretty clean. Because around me the bar floors are covered with glass. Next time your in a fight and go to the ground who's to say you wont end up falling on the above mentioned and doing serous damage to yourself. Also people tend not to go out or their own and, while your doing well controlling him with a lock, your not in anyway prepared for his mates who could be running in to help him out.
Colorado, everything is cleaner in Colorado. Anyway I was talking to my sensei about the situation. We recrated the scene except with em sober. After reading your guys posts I noticed more and more strategies came quick into my head. Im not sure if this cause i feel safer in my dojo or because I reliezed thinking is important lol. Idk but thank you guys for your comments and suggestions i'll be sure to post the next worst case scenario.
If you keep your wits about you and use your brain (reading those books I suggested wouldn't hurt either), you should be able to avoid there being a next time. Not fighting is always better than fighting unless you're getting paid and/ or there are legal waivers and safety measures in place - ie, a competition
Absolutely! Basic but essential. Giving someone a free shot can be tatamount to letting him win! Also, don't allow any aggressor to get into your personal space without doing something about it. Use the palms facing forward, 'hands off' gesture which can quickly be turned into a strike. It also looks good to any passers-by as they'll see someone holding out their hands in a defensive posture. I say good because if the cops are called you don't look like the aggressor. Forget pressure points and see them as 'nice to haves' when you already have control of the situation, not before. Use the basics, compact straight punches with the elbows tucked in, move off the line of centre and get your opponent off balance. Once he's off balance you have an opportunity to throw or sweep him. Don't go to the ground unless it's necessary and you're sure he hasn't got mates round the corner. Remember, to actually use your ju jitsu in a fight you have to be able to get your opponent in a position where it's gonna work. That means setting him up properly.
You were in a bar... Why didnt you arm up and use a weapon? I dont mean slash the drunken lout ( from an officers standpoint that would be bad ), but depending on what you say you can easily bill a bottle to the head as a method of self defense. Also, I noticed ( at least im inferring this ) that you didnt strike him at all to 'soften' him up or at least give him a distractor. Throw a glass full of a high proof beverage in his face then land a solid blow of your choice ( or if you prefer, lob him to the floor, laugh, then go to a new bar ). Im lazy though... I drink at home
