Wooden Naginata

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by KSprenk, Jun 27, 2005.

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  1. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Mr. Hawk,
    No one is doubting whatever woodworking skills you may possess. What we are doubting is that you have any idea what a proper naginata looks like. All of the remaining naginata schools are fairly particular about what naginata bokken a student is required to train with. None of them look anything like the one that you made. If someone has told you that they are teaching you "naginatajutsu" using that as a training tool, then they have invented their "naginatajutsu" out of their own brain, and it has no relation to any existing school of naginata.
     
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That "naginata" looks more chinese in proportion and style than a proper naginata.
     
  3. Mike Hawk

    Mike Hawk New Member

    This material requires me to make the blade wider and an alltogether different shape for it to be balanced. That is the only problem with these. I could try to make a live steel blade, to which could be the proper dimensions, but i just dont trust my metalwork to be sufficient in doing a naginata justice.

    This is not for the naginata purist, but just for someone trying to get the basic concept down before they invest several hundred dollars in buying a japanese-made bokken.

    And please do not insult anothers practice, especially one of the few schools left for the subject. :confused:
     
  4. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Ninecircles uk have them but they are pricey and who knows what the shipping would cost:

    www.ninecircles.co.uk

    No, I don't work for them.

    Apologies if this has been posted prev but I didn't see it on a quick scan.
     
  5. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I didn't see any insulting going on regarding your practice.

    As respectfully as I can that thing you call a naginata is a disgrace to the word. If you want to create a wooden training weapon like this you would get a much better product if you started with a single piece of lumber, and carved it down to the correct size. This thing is really not good.

    That said - if you had just made it and said - "hey guys look what I made for my training" i'd have been 'oh well that looks weird, but good on ya'.

    Also, that background is one of the most disgusting things you could have picked for it - if you don't have a space that is clean or doesn't have walls that aren't smashed in and junk everywhere then at least go find a park and put it in a natural setting for you picture.

    Good on you for making it, but i'll pass thanks.
     
  6. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Seems overly harsh. And criticizing the background for the photo? Really? I get that you don't like the product. But I sincerely doubt that this was "as respectfully as you can."
     
  7. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    If so I apologize. I have a habit for giving a little overly honest opinions, it is something that I am working on.

    But I think that if you are marketing something for sale you should be conscious of things like this.
     
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    He said "$30" originally. That's hardly going to make for a killer profit margin, after materials costs are taken into account. Then that was edited out, until only shipping costs were mentioned. Not exactly uncaring Corporate America.

    I get that people don't like the product. Or that it's not a faithful reproduction. Or even that it's just flat-out wrong in dimensions. But I believe there's a way to convey these things that doesn't constantly make us look like we're having a go at one another.

    A bit of civility is all I'm asking.
     
  9. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    I did not mean to insult your practice, I was merely stating that it was obviously not a traditional naginata school as they are quite particular about what is used for practice. If you don't mind my asking then, what is the name of the tradition that you are training in?
     
  10. Mike Hawk

    Mike Hawk New Member

    i took out the price because i don't mind sending a better one out to you for free. I did not make the naginata that i use for practice and i am not looking for a profit until someone actually sees that they are worthy.
    I don't really wish to reveal where exactly i live, but if you have ever heard of Atlanta Katori? That is a sister program here.
    I need that fan as it is 95 degrees in that workspace and it keeps the air flowing to prevent build up of wood particles and steel shavings. I had just finished the first stage of making it and i wanted to send a picture to my buddy, so i figured i would also post it here, since it was handy, but i guess all the criticism means that i should probably take an updated picture after treatment of the "blade" and shaping.

    I don't understand why all of these "masters" could possibly lay claim to anything when they are first to jump at someones throat for being friendly.
     
  11. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    http://www.sugawarabudo.com/atlanta_katori.html <-- this?
    If so, have you brought it too training yet? Tell us how it went.
     
  12. Mike Hawk

    Mike Hawk New Member

    As i said before- I do not use the one i took the picture of to practice with. I use one that I bought when i was in Japan.
     
  13. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    One of the few schools left for naginata practice? While not the most known weapon (in the West), there are still quite a few naginata ryu-ha around, as well as ryu-ha that include naginata, plus more modern Atarashii Naginata around. Examples of naginata ryu-ha would include:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPR0cF_snbE"]戸田派武甲æµè–™åˆ€è¡“ toda-ha buko-ryu naginatajutsu - YouTube[/ame]
    Toda-ha Buko Ryu (note that this is their kagitsuki naginata, taught as well as their regular naginata. The image at the beginning is, I believe, their nagamaki)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64cmdEUl_jc"]Jikishinkage-ryu Naginata - YouTube[/ame]
    Jikishinkage Ryu Naginatajutsu (a smaller, lighter weapon than the Buko Ryu one)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qtbadm9wRQ"]Tendo Ryu Naginata jutsu - YouTube[/ame]
    Tendo Ryu Naginata (the system also often includes the usage of small blades, and teaches nito and kenjutsu)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2MZv33i6Bo"]Itsukushima 12 - Naginata - YouTube[/ame]
    Yoshin Ryu Naginata (the movements are based around the form of kimono worn)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wem9KZeFKEA"]Chokugen-ryu Onaginata - YouTube[/ame]
    Chokugen Ryu O Naginata (big naginata here...)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEbBhb-1EKI"]Naginata kata - YouTube[/ame]
    Atarashii Naginata ("Modern", or "new", Naginata, here in kata form)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=megRxn02fP8"]第78回 港区ãªãŽãªãŸå¤§ä¼š - YouTube[/ame]
    Atarashii Naginata (the competitive form)

    And so on...

    Schools that include Naginata include Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, Araki Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Kukishinden Ryu (as found in the X-Kans), Maniwa Nen Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and more.

    Now, as Paul said, each of these Ryu-ha (even the modern Atarashii Naginata) have specific measurements and dimensions for their weapons, none of which resemble the item you have created. Especially not the naginata found in Katori Shinto Ryu, which you claim some affiliation to through the Sugawara group? Hopefully this should help you understand why your item has gotten the reaction it has, as, from a naginata-practitioner perspective, it looks deeply flawed on a number of levels.
     
  14. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You will note that I apologized. I do not want to edit my post as I think that it is best to not hide things like this, it happened, I said it and lets see if I can improve from there.

    One thing I would note, is the money aspect you bring up in his defense could be viewed differently, because he clearly states he is OK to make a profit from this, and that he edited the $30 (that I never saw) could be taken that he wants to bump the price up, perhaps to a level where you might take issue with it.

    Frankly, I find it hard to believe that a person claiming to be a talented woodworker would create this product, especially when he also claims to have the real thing too.

    Mike - here are some ideas if you want to create a product you can make a profit from (which you do):

    1. Dimensions - critical in any product that is used in a traditional martial art, the overall length and also the proportions are key. Remember that they will be used in Kata with weapons (hopefully made by someone who cares) that have a set length too, so if you are out then the Kata requires changing (angles for distance etc). Dimensions should be obviously important to a person who creates any sort of product.

    Could I ask what dimensions you use now, where you got them from and how they relate to the Naginata purchased in Japan? Also, is that a proper one? Where did you buy it and for how much?

    2. Construction - Modular weapons do not work very well, they are the first thing to break - a solid piece would be much more consistent. If you are building modular breaks will happen a lot and you will get a reputation for building things that don't last long and nobody will buy from you.

    3. Presentation - get your product marketed well, all we have is the chance to look at it here, consider that this is your potential market and act accordingly. That applies to both the presentation of the weapon, and the background.

    You mentioned earlier sending through pics of a 'destruction vid' what the hell that is I don't know, I am guessing that you mean you smash something up with this to show its prowess? I would recommend that you instead post close up pictures of your construction process to show us why you think the modular will hold, what joints you used, what adhesives you used (hoping its not all wood glue).

    If you can do the above, offer it cheaper, faster, and with better guarantee then we have a potential market for you, but if you can only produce a poorly constructed and marketed product then you have no market and are wasting your time.
     
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I did note that, yes. I thought it important to address your followup point though, as you (presumably) thought it was important to make it after apologizing. I do agree with you, though, that it's time to move on.

    Except that didn't happen. Better to withhold judgment. And, as it turns out, the intent was to send a tester out for free (save for, perhaps, shipping costs).

    All I'm asking is that we start giving each other some benefit of the doubt. There's this latent hostility that simply doesn't need to be there. More experience in bujutsu isn't a hunting license.
     
  16. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    When I was training in the Bujinkan very few people had a naginata, so consequently this weapon hardly ever featured in a class during the 18 months I trained. The one person who did take his whenever he trained had something like a bo (but longer) with a curved piece of bamboo attached at the end. Better than nothing at all, but quite a bit longer than the disputed item
     
  17. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Mr. Hawk,
    I'm sorry if it seems like you are being picked on, but you seem to be making some serious claims without the expected background knowledge, so it sounds a bit on the strange side. First you offer up your own version of a naginata, which you state that you made for your brother to use in your school, which is bold of you and worth praising. However, it was met with less than enthusiastic response due to the fact that it is not suitable for koryu practice. This is where you began to take offense and make excuses. Instead of researching, you said it was the material that caused it to be made incorrectly for practice. When asked about your practice, you drop the TSKSR name, even though you earlier said you were at a ninjutsu and naginatajutsu school. Then you said you don't actually use it for practice, you use one that you bought when you were in Japan, even though you've only been learning the art for a year.

    You have to admit that, seen in this light, your responses seem to be a bit on the odd side. It is OK to be wrong, as it is mistakes that allow us to learn and grow. It is not so OK to stretch the truth and try to make people believe something other than what is.

    Anyway, it is neither here nor there to me, I was just curious from the beginning.

    Good luck to you sir.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Nicely done. I can learn from that approach to things.
     
  19. Mike Hawk

    Mike Hawk New Member

    This has gone infinitely out of control. I go to a sister school involved in Atlanta. I am astonished because none of you have actually met me or know anything about me yet you are trying to play internet detective and figure out this "mastermind thief" who, apparently, did not want to help, but wanted to doom the original poster. Muahaha, you have figured it out. I want all the profit of a couple dollars and you can forget the shipping!

    Listen to how idiotic you are.
    "not to sound disrestpectful but OMG that whitetrash box fan and destroyed space OMG"
     
  20. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    you may have tried to help but you didn't, you offered him a bit of rubbish then went off in a defensive tantrum when no one liked it. Grow up and act your age not your shoe size.
     
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