Woman VS Man experience

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by hedgehogey, May 23, 2004.

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  1. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned


    I told you man. See, now you done gone and caught it from Tika. Now you're gonna get tackled like the rest of us.
     
  2. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    I guess beating is a subjective term. He doesn't get what he wants, but isn't physically vanquished either (which I think is the point of this thread). I'm not disparaging you, your art or your sex here - my motivation was (I thought) quite noble. But I stand by my statements - and it isn’t just about size / strength. Men are wired differently than women - I think our latent propensity for violence is higher - for example, I would “stay and play” - and I'd break something. The reasons are two fold -

    1) I win all other/future fights with this person right here right now
    2) I'd quite enjoy it.

    Another wiring aspect - visual spatial reasoning (athletic intelligence)
    Lips, 1993 - points out that men have both greater and faster visual spatial reasoning - so that's a reaction and an accuracy advantage. Maybe it’s a throwback to caveman / cavewomen days, who knows?

    Also – in a real fight, most people on the wrong end of an exchange will try and take the fight to the ground. Most men, unless they *ahem* are up against Hedgehogs mum will be fine in this space, where power can pay dividends against technique.

    I’ve googled around for articles to support the “women can be men” argument, and I’m not getting much info..
     
  3. Tika

    Tika New Member

    You make good points, which is more than most people do. So you will not get any tackling. Unless of course you enjoy it, then I would have no probelm with tackling you :D....

    I understand your points, and I hope you understand mine. When I think of winning a fight, I think of coming out of it as the one who is harmed the least. So I guess I dont feel the need to "physically vanquish" someone to wina fight.

    Ok...yes...just remember the type of females we are talking about here. Lets disregard the "dojo bunnies" and the women that come in purely for some self defense pointers, and think about the women that join MA to really train and become a martial artists. Dont you think theyre wired a bit different than the avg. female?


    The first reason seems to only apply when you are going to fight someone that you plan on seeing in the future, so I doubt it would be a life or death/ self defense type of situation. The second, thats fine. I have to say I enjoy fighting too, but I wouldnt enjoy it if someone was attacking me and trying to rape or kill me. Sticking around then to enjoy the fight is stupid for guys or girls.

    Have any links to articles on this? Im not saying your wrong, Im just surprised I havent read about it. But once again, dont you think a trained female martial artist will have honed that skill enough to challenge an untrained male attacker?

    This leads to a completely different debate. The necessity of grappling training in SD.... Im sure there are plenty of women MAist who are skilled enough on the ground to help herself out of that kind of situation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2004
  4. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    I'll see if I can find the articles for you - but hey, we've all seen women try to park, so it must be true...

    *Ducks rotten tomatoes* - I think we're in agreement - sadly the only "proof" comes in a proper altercation - sparing is not enough. I know there are women out there that can beat some men, no doubt. I just don't think that there are that many - and that there are plenty of women who believe they're in that category that aren't.

    I hear what you're saying about being less injured - but in that same zen way we win all fights that never come to blows, etc... For me wining is an "I give / nice hospital" type of premise.

    Reason 2 is something more base than what you've alluded too - I kick tables that I stub my toe on, etc... I'm just wired to attack things that hurt me.

    I'd love a tackle...
    *jogs in a slow, teasing manner*
    *sidesteps*
    Heheh.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2004
  5. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Tika, I think you've met your match.
     
  6. Tika

    Tika New Member

    Yeah... I dunno about that quite yet :cool:
     
  7. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Phhh!
    you can beat ALL women just by tickling.
    *braces for impact*
     
  8. Mind Aflame

    Mind Aflame New Member

    And yet somehow tickling seems to take a back seat in martial arts.
     
  9. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Its the ULTIMATE pressure point technique!
     
  10. Vanir

    Vanir lost my sidhe

    Hope you won't mind a few thoughts as I happened by.

    Yes, the supposition itself is. Really must learn to recognize science humour (cynicism).
    The differences in brain structure between males and females are cultural. Period. Numurous anthropological and genetic studies/experimentation will suggest this by default, which is itself an establishment of science (ie. where nothing is suggested, nothing is suggested).
    A study was published in local radio media the other day: females learn to read faster than males. This is an excellent, similar example. The study itself will stipulate that females, in Australia, under a Westminster education system and an Australian sociology appear to learn to read faster in primary schools than males. Anthropologists will also stipulate the first rule of science: that correlation does not infer causation.

    That is to say that one way to look at it would be that females must have "brain structures orientated to reading/intellectual activities moreso than males," however there is nothing in the history of sciences which directly infers such a thing. Another way to look at it may be that the Australian society tends to cultivate its young in such a manner that females occaision to learn reading faster than males in primary school (footy, anyone?).
    You say you study martial arts, right? I mean, you've heard of koppojutsu (bone smashing techniques), koshijutsu (nerve-strikes), these for example are fairly important medieval period technique studies and I dare say a woman thusly equipped would make quite a deadly opponent indeed.
    These kind of battlefield techniques typical of hardcore martial arts contain automatic manoeuvres. Their effectiveness lay in the fact that if circumstances allow their application succinctly, the technique itself does all the work for the practitioner. Enter one dead mugger with a broken neck around 3.5-50 seconds after the attack (if successful, at worst simply break and start again). The real trick for many in self defence is how to remain legally sound without getting killed because you weigh half as much as your assailant. It's in what you're forced to put up with (in order to have societies with laws, etc.) more than what you're capable of doing.

    An adjacent speculation, I wonder if the period approximating Japan's Meji Restoration has any lessons in this.

    As for me, I weigh around 57kg (about the weight I can bench-press), so enjoy many of the disadvantages of most women compared to the more average male (around 75kg but still bench-pressing around 57). There are several things I learned I had to particularly watch out for. But I studied the best martial arts styles I could find and always had a pretty quick mind to make the best use of them and add where I could or needed to. I dare say any female could simply do the same.

    Last point: how to make a human, an astonishing creature capable of amazing feats among themselves or other species. Take a brain, attach a body. Nothing about it having to be male or female.
     
  11. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Good read, if a little meandering.
    If the speed advantage is nurture or nature makes little difference, it still is. My MA, WC, was supposedly created by a woman of the same name. (It all happened so long ago..) and is well suited for skill over power, but I think that in samesized competitors, men have the advantage.

    I 'm just being journolistic. No one loves women more than me, trust me. I could spout the politically correct "we're all the same" lines, but its patently untrue.
     
  12. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Interesting Post :D
     
  13. Tika

    Tika New Member

    *tackles scarlet and richie at the same time* hiya fellas... *grin*
     
  14. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Turns to Scarlet.. "Of course women DO have tackling advantages"
     
  15. Dr NinjaBellydance

    Dr NinjaBellydance What is your pleasure sir

    Heh, I'll be impressed if you can find me a 5'2" guy to spar with :p
    And if you do, I'm really not all that convinced that he'll beat me just because he's got testicles ;)
    I think that its really difficult to make the comparision because women are (on average) shorter and lighter than men. In a genuinely well matched fight, I think its just down to skill and luck.
    However, any sparring I've done against guys bigger than me (ie everyone...), I'm well aware of the fact that one well landed punch from them is gonna do a lot more damage to me than vice versa. But isnt that why we do MA, to use skill rather than brute force. It's like saying that Grandmaster Whoever will be unlikely to bring down a nominally trained 15 stone bruiser just because he's 75 and weighs 99 pounds soaking wet!
    :)
     
  16. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Who can say for sure? I just report what I've noticed, but I haven't seen a bazzillion women fighters, but the ones I have seen "move in a girlie way".

    *Dons complete flameprotector suit*
     
  17. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    I share Rich's views. The women I've seen are more easily knocked over. (I've sparred female instructors - black sashes - and they didn't hit me...).
    Well, I will have a better view in a few weeks at least ... there are 4 women that will soon be entering the sparring class .... :D . Now, I'll have to fight even less ... :D

    Please don't kill me :D
     
  18. Dr NinjaBellydance

    Dr NinjaBellydance What is your pleasure sir

    lol.
    Smithers, release the hounds....... :p
    Heheh, 'in a girlie way', like 'oh my god, I broke a nail *sob*' ;) , you need to get out more pet.... :p
    Seriously though, I'm well aware that I'm a lot easier to throw around than some guys, and maybe I'm not the best person to talk because I really dont do the whole competition fighting thing, but I have seen equally skilled women beat the pants off big guys in both semi-contact and groundwork. And I think in a 'street situation' when you're dealing with untrained thugs, if you're a woman with training you can often gain the advantage, because they're not expecting you to fight back and know what you're doing. OK, so maybe that advantage wears off pretty quickly, but this is real life, not 'Rocky', you're not there to stay in the ring for 60 seconds and win points. You wanna get the guy off your back and get out of there, soon as, before 5 of his mates turn up. It's been said that a woman might be able to fend the guy off, but not beat him. Why the hell would you want to? It's not a game, you're not there to massage your ego, you were just minding your own buisness and some crazy guy jumped you! It could be argued that only testosterone-charged machismo would make you dumb enough to fight any more than you have to, giving your opponant the chance to gain his own advantage (5 mates, switchblade etc)...... :woo:
    See, we can do sexist too *flutters eyelashes and flashes winning smile*
    :D
    *thpbthbpbth* :p
     
  19. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    You are right.. We've already discussed what constitutes "beats" and it seems both subjective and contextual.
     
  20. Dr NinjaBellydance

    Dr NinjaBellydance What is your pleasure sir

    Hokay. :)
    I confess, I lost track of some of the earlier stuff, 15 pages is a whole lot of writing and I forgot to bring my glasses to work today...doh..
    :rolleyes:
     
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