Woman gets beaten in her own home by burglar

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Saved_in_Blood, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. Anwolf

    Anwolf Valued Member

    Why would the criminal allow you to run and call the police... If you can't stop him yourself, you should do what he says. There won't be time to call the police and by the time they get there, he'll probably have gone.
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    if you can, you have to escape. doing what the intruder says is very, very bad. why would someone order you to do something when they've got a weapon pointed at you or a loved one, if not take yours and their life? at the very least, the timer is now running (because the police are coming in the criminal's mind) if you escape.
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    That may be a perfectly good option.
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Why would you think a killer isn't also a liar?
  5. Anwolf

    Anwolf Valued Member

    If the guys got a gun to my wife's head (or any other persons head) then they're probably gonna be quite jumpy. If he hasn't seen you yet or doesn't know you're then by all means call the police. But if you're in a situation where you're close enough to him that you might have to fight him, then I really don't think there would be enough time to call the police before he shoots you or your wife.

    Fusen: If he's ordering to do something then there are only really two choices:
    - Comply, after all, the only thing he really wants here is money.
    - Resist, in which case you're probably going to have to fight him (which I think has already been decided that it's a bad idea if he's pointing a gun at you...)
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2013
  6. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I never said I would shoot around my Wife, nor would I attempt to do so. I'd have to stand my ground and let him understand that if he shoots her, that he will die if he does... so if he wants to put down HIS gun, then i'll let him go. However, I will not abandon my Wife and do something that someone else tells me to do in that situation. Fear or no fear ... it makes no difference to me. I don't mind if I die in the situation, but he's not going to kill both of us because of me putting down my gun. I'm sorry, but I think that's a foolish way of looking at it.
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Wow. This thread has entered crazy town.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    In psychological terms he wants out and you need to do everything you can to facilitate him leaving. Ultimatums are not a good idea at all, especially as you have no tactical communication background. There is a reason that you and your wife in this scenario are currently not dead - you have to find it.

    "Just shoot him" is also never that simple - if you could read the early post when I mentioned Grossman's book you my have ha a chance to expand your horizons and knowledge level. Most people keep playing at self protection which is why "a gun would stop this happening" as a statement is more than a little naive
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Oh wait I'm on ignore right? Ah we'll at least someone else may get something from it...
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    What happens if she uses her for a shield, then shoots you first?

    or if none of this happens and you accidentally shoot your wife by mistake, which is far more likely.
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You should wear your underpants on the outside and get yourself a cape. :D

    We have several movies in one here.

    I am the law - Judge Dredd

    If the dies, he dies - Rocky IV

    Superman - Man of Steel

    As a husband and father I can appreciate your sentiment, but there is a difference between saying, "I would like to think I would defend my family and would potentially make the ultimate sacrifice for them", to saying, I'll shoot whoever steps foot through my door without my permission and to hell with the consequence".

    Ultimately (which is what we're talking about here) my wife and kids need e here for them.
    I'm no good to my family if I'm spending a life term in jail because I made my mind up early on I would kill, when possibly a better option was available to me.
  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you might call it foolish. i call it survival.
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Just to take the sting out of this thread a little, the above reminds me of a story.

    An instructor I was training with at a private class (yes Hannibal, you guess correctly), said, "if faced by a gun or knife man, put your wife between you and him. You can always get a new wife).

    Haha, he was joking (I think). :D
  14. Anwolf

    Anwolf Valued Member

    If he's just looking to make some cash he won't want to kill you and your wife. If he's some psycho out to kill people, he's going to want to kill you and your wife.

    So the way I see it there are four basic (very basic) ways in could play out:

    1. He wants some cash. You put your gun down. He takes your stuff and you both get to live

    2. He wants some cash. You don't put your gun down. Somebody ends up dead, it could be you, your wife, or the criminal.

    3. He wants to kill you. You put your gun down. You and your wife die.

    4. He wants to kill you. You don't put your gun down. Your wife dies, and either you or the criminal dies.

    So in the cases where you don't put your gun down, somebody is likely to get killed. If you put your gun down, there is a slim chance that you will get killed (but what's more likely, he wants some cash or he's a crazy nutter...)
  15. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Simon, I understand what you are saying, but as we have had this discussion before you know that I am well aware of my local laws when it comes to the "castle doctrine" and what my limits are. I can shoot him and drop him without penalty if he dies on the first hit, then he dies. If I get him in the leg and he drops his weapon, or I see he has none, I cannot continue to shoot him with 147 grain HST +p's (better to overdo it) as that would be considered excessive force. If he's hyped on meth or something else and I have to hit him with the whole clip... that's what i'll have to do.

    Perhaps I am jumping the gun (no pun intended) but I know very well that this isn't TV or the movies. There's no need to make that assumption that I am trying to be Judge Dredd or whoever else. What I said is genuinely how I feel. For obvious reasons, I do not fear death, so like I said. If I have to die in the process of my Wife and child being safe that's ok. They will be fine and they will be alive.
  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

  17. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Fair shout :p

    I feel its worth pointing out that while I personally have that approach, not too long ago we did discuss it on MAP and a fair few people disagreed with me. I'm not sure its a unanimous mindset.

    I'd probably agree with you in most cases honestly. But I don't know if that strong desire would make accurate shooting easier under an adrenaline dump. Couldn't it make it worse? Its extra stress if you're thinking about how the situation could be life and death for your kid as well as you.

  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Stress decreases fine motor skills everytime in everyone - draw your own conclusions from that

    One reason we put so much time in at the range and in scenarios is precisely becausenfnteh stress associated with firing under pressure. The reason we spend so much time on mental prep is so we can be prepared to kill someone should it be needed. The reason we spend so much time on tactical communications is so we don't have to if it isn't necessary. Basic training is six solid months and it is only the start I career long training and refreshers.

    Simply buying a gun and walking around with it is not enough anymore than buying a car means you can drive or buying a Le Creut set makes you a chef
  19. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Feel free not to answer Hanni, but have you ever been in a situation that tested whether that training helped a lot?
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes lots. I have (thankfully) never shot anyone yet, but there have been many times when the finger was on the trigger and the "slack" was off. The most striking was one that I didn't even see the assailant - a colleague and myself were shot at from an unknown location as we were talking to a member of the public. The adrenal response kicked in instantly but we fell back into training and almost in unison drew, scanned and swept whilst moving to cover. We sent the member of the public back inside, called it in and made a recon of the immediate area.

    We never found anything and suspect it was a .22 fired from a nearby high rise. It was pretty hairy.

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