WMMA Fighters in altercation

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by aaradia, Jul 29, 2015.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Apparently, this happened a couple of months ago, but I just ran across this story. Two WMMA fighters got caught up in a fight. Leslie Smith I am a fan of, Heather Jo Clark, not so much. I have mixed feelings about her after watching her on TUF.

    This could have gone here or in the MMA section, but I am more interested in the self defense aspects of the story, so I put it here.

    First thought that I am pondering, is that balancing act between standing up for yourself (or a friend) but taking that stand actually being pretty poor self defense.

    Part of me applauds Smith for taking a stand against the sexist jerk grabbing her friend. But the (smarter) part of me with training in self defense says it was dumb. They should have just reported the guy to the bouncer or manager at the bar for harassing women and let the staff there deal with him.

    Second thing that struck me was that here we have a trained MMA fighter who admitted that having her hair pulled threw her and she paused not knowing what to do.

    Made me think about discussions at my school and here on MAP about the importance of drilling different scenarios. Even a pro fighter can be thrown by something they aren't used to.

    I will add though that she recovered from her hesitation and won the fight handily though. Still, it is interesting to hear how it affected her.

    From the article -
    Third thought is that she should be TAKING a self defense class, not teaching one. And again, I say this as a fan of hers. But her description of this fight makes me think, yes she has the fighting part of self defense down. But, so much of self defense is about what you do before it comes to a fight, and here I don't think she did so well.

    And yet I admit there is that part of me cheering her actions.

    Do you think that guy will think twice about grabbing a woman in the future? Or will he carry on as before?

    Thoughts?


    http://mmajunkie.com/2015/06/the-st...smith-beat-up-a-handsy-hippy-in-san-francisco
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  2. zombiekicker

    zombiekicker bagpuss

    Good job I'm bald
     
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    If that is all you got out of that, you are missing the point. Maybe it isn't hair grabbing, but something else.

    Here is something that happened in a group class to me once. The instructor was talking about things my school doesn't often talk about in our training. Then she came up behind me and asked how we would respond to this........and she came up behind me and put her hands over my mouth. I hesitated, I had no response right away. Because of all the things we drilled, that hadn't been something I had ever drilled or thought of before. And that hesitation could make a real difference in a real situation. And even in the safe setting of the class, it phased me. I'll tell you, I did NOT like the feeling of having my mouth covered like that and it took me out of my "fighting" element and was a minor pychological shock to me.

    She then covered things to do against that move, but the bigger point wasn't just about that move. That was only part of what she was teaching us.

    That REALLY got me thinking- not just about that move- but about the whole concept of moves that could take one by surprise. It is something I have thought about a lot ever since that class.

    Sure, I came up with a quicker defense when she did the same thing to me a couple of weeks later.

    But she wasn't just teaching us about that move, but about thinking about all the ways something could happen that could phase us, throw us off, make us think instead of react, make us hesitate............

    That was one of the best classes I ever had.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  4. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Actually I think she is the perfect person to be teaching womens self defence, she knows how to fight, knows what contact is like, and has actually used her skills in self defence, realised there were gaps (sounds fixed them) and then started teaching the class

    Much better than allot of womens self defence classes I have seen where you are taught stupid stuff like standing wrist locks and finger grabs to break grips etc and unrealistic things by people who have never fought and don’t know exactly how much puncishment a person can take and still stand in front of you

    We don’t know her thinking behind deciding to act but since she was sober, had several people with her watching her back (including trained fighters) and was in a public place with security handy it didn’t seem like a really stupid thing to do, maybe not the best thing but understandable

    Scenario training like you talk about is obviously important, but for me the biggest part of any confrontation if it happens is the adreline dump from the sheer physical and verbal abuse you are under and are about to confront and the worry about what is going to happen to you, and someone who has
    fought and trained full contact has the ability to deal with that adreline dump knows how to deal with pain, scenario training will teach that but only if the physical and verbal stress levels reach the same level as you might find in a fight (as they seem to do in JWTs SIM days) or to put it another way if you are drilling hair grabs and such attacks in a quiet compliant class setting normally you fall apart when the reality of a situation is faced with the verbal abuse posturing and violence it involves
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Do you think anyone could have done better once the fight had begun?
     
  6. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Yeah, women's self defence classes are pretty much always a dangerously bad joke, but if I was going to trust anyone to teach a woman how to fight for her life, it would be a woman who actually knows how to fight.
     
  7. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Was she right to go after the guy? Should she have gone for the police /security? Was being a fighter the reason she went after the guy?

    Really this could have been limited /avoided but I understand she was rightly offended for her friend and she decided he was getting a beating unless he apologised.

    Thoughts?

    LFD
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  8. HairoNoSora

    HairoNoSora Valued Member

    From what I've read on the incident, she handled it pretty well despite being thrown a bit by the hair pulling.

    It was unexpected for her, but every fight whether in a sport or self-defense context has unexpected things happening, you can't drill and prepare for everything. What matters is being able to roll with the unexpected and have the proper instincts.

    Also, the biggest thing I got from this is don't be a jerk and don't pick fights, even people who you don't expect to might be able to beat you up"
     
  9. Janno

    Janno Valued Member



    To address your points OP:-

    Thought 1:
    Standing up for yourself vs self defense. It is worth pointing out here that one does not necessarily come at the expense of the other. A lack of assertive behaviour in the women could have actually encouraged the subject to escalate his behaviour. I have seen it plenty of times - especially in some of London's high-end clubs where young girls don't want to risk rejection from wealthy males who are used to getting what they want, and whose abundance of "cling-ons" makes them appear more socially formidable than they actually are. However, whenever a person attempts to be assertive and chooses to engage a subject, they must also be ready for it to escalate, and act accordingly - contingency planning, if you will.

    Thought 2:
    It is human nature to hesitate when confronted by a situation that is unusual to them. There is nothing we can do about that. However, i would argue that women who do some kind of high-impact combat sport are in a far better position to respond to physical violence than those who do not. The attributes that are built from intense physical conditioning, and frequent exposure to actual violence (both as giver and receiver) are key to preparing a person for the harsh realities of a defensive scenario. Certainly far more so than cringeworthy roleplays and carefully choreographed technical drills.

    Thought 3:
    By way of a solution, perhaps some concept of conflict management (which many people have naturally, without formal training) would have been useful here: Specifically skills in avoiding conflict and de-escalating it. There are many tactics to defusing conflict - rapport; misdirection; flattery; reasoning; distraction; bribery; threat of consequences; social pressure; easy-out; etc... When reviewing the incident (which may have only lasted a few seconds), the ultimate question should always be: "How could this have been handled better?" Though i agree the subject's behaviour was unacceptable, the response didn't really permit the subject to leave the situation with their ego intact at any point. Hence there was no immediate incentive for him to back down or apologise. And while we'd all like to think that the "predator" in this scenario will change his ways as a result of getting a hiding from poorly chosen "prey," it is far more likely that he'll simply choose another hunting ground, and select his targets more carefully in the future.
     

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