WMA vs. Reenactment

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Stolenbjorn, Mar 3, 2004.

  1. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I noticed a question on wether reenactment is "OK" as WMA, and I feel that my answer deserves a new thread.

    There's a big difference between showfighting(reenactmentfights) and martial arts. reenactment is more like a sport, or improvised freefight with safetyrules that makes the fight unrealistic to the trained eye (a bit like american wresteling compared to real wresteling). There are different rules for different settings/showgroups and continents. I don't know anything about how the SCA in USA works.

    The reenactmentrules practiced in Norway/northern europe, is that you use metal swords/weapons, as much/as little armour as you like/dare. You have to use padded gloves as a minimum. You have to know how to stop blows and thrusts. There are for safetyreasons some WMA-attacks and parries that are forbidden, like upwardsthrusts and false edge blows coming with the point first. Underarms and head are forbidden targets even if your opponent use a helmet. If you hit the head in a reenactmentfight, you are to loose the fight (but make it look realistic for the audience!). Theese rules are used both for duel-situations and massed battles! In addition you have people doing jousting (knight-duels), using balsawood in the lances.

    For both reenactment on foot and jousting, you have people practicing a "full contact modus". That means obligatoric and historically correct armor/ protection of vital areas, and the whole body is a valid target. The full contact jousting tournament I know of, takes place in Canada, and involves lances of hard wood, where they try to knock eachother out of the saddle...Hardcore.

    For the reasons mentiones somewhere above, I think that reenactment isn't martial arts. Reenacters tend to get to much hoocked up in winning, and starts scoring tapping-hits that in real life wouldn't even hurt a fly... But it is a highly related "sportsversion" of the martial art, and thus IMO deserves a place in this forum (We are few enough as we are!)
     
  2. Shaolin Dragon

    Shaolin Dragon Born again martial artist

    And in competitions in traditional martial arts, there are ALWAYS limitations on which moves can be performed, certain techniques will be banned, again for safety reasons.
    There have been numerous threads on what constitutes a martial art: does boxing count? Can a sport be a martial art?

    To be perfectly honest, I couldn't care less if people class what I do as a martial art or not. What I do know is that I gain as much from reenactment as I do from MA.
     
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    -Agreed.

    It's just that some tecniqes used in reenactment are not "proper/realistic" tecniqes. People that cannot tell the difference, and would like to learn the "art" and not the "sport", need to be told the difference. Personally, I do both WMA and reenactment. To me WMA is more researching speciffic tecniqes with a trusted partner, going over the same moves and details time and time again, whereas reenactment is free improvisation within the rules and generally more fun. (It's like two aspects of combat, and I could not be without either of them!) I've never taken part in any showfights with more than 12 people, and I'd just love to take part in one of the huge battles on the continent with 200+ perons :D
     
  4. kenpfrenger

    kenpfrenger sportin' a Broughton

    I think that is room for both in the WMA world as long as everybody understands what is what. The only time I have gotten irked is when I see reenactors claiming that they are doing it how it was really done. I think this attitude is changing quickly though. But a few years back I saw several demos claiming to be exactly how it was done back in the day. I have not seen this lately.
     
  5. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Re-Enactment & WMA

    I haven't been involved in any re-enactment, looks fun and certainly could attract people into more combative forms of Western MA in the same way that Lion Dancing, Chi demonstrations and weapon forms performed by people in traditional uniforms attract the public to Kung Fu...

    My personal approach is to train as I would if I were teaching an Eastern style in a modern setting with modern equipment (padding, focus mitts, etc)
    I know that for some, to truly get to understand a historical style, they wear the costume of the period to see how it effects the body mechanics, etc.

    Louie
     
  6. Shaolin Dragon

    Shaolin Dragon Born again martial artist

    I think generally people do reenactment for different reasons than MA; that is more for fun and an interest in history than as a means to personal betterment, fitness and SD. That doesn't mean to say that reenactment doesn't provide any of those things. I don't consider it to be MA, but then I know people I train with who do, and I don't consider boxing to be MA whilst plenty of people will argue about that. It seems silly to get caught up in semantics; if everybody is happy doing what they do, and they are getting whatever benefits it offers, who cares what anybody calls it?
     
  7. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    I too do both sorta.
    I did and do reenactment stuff because for my location that was the only place to learn anyting about how to use weapons.
    And if people wish to call what they are doing a martial art fine i dont care as long as they leave me to my own studies.

    I am reminded of a time when I was in the prcess of construcition a gretesword for reenactment sparring. I had been slowly making it have a realistic blance and weight while being safe enough to spar with my touch hitting friends. But one person tried to convince me to, one lighten the sword which was ridiculous as it was already on the light end of a gretesword at around 3 pounds and seoncd to change to blance so I could use it easliy with one hand. Even after several minutes of trying to explain to him why I made it the way I did, which was to behave like a real weapon not some whippy stick with more reach.
    another thing a lot of peopel I spar with try to fight with one handed swords and say they are fighting like samurai when they fight like a sabreist.
    Reenactment is nice and cool but whne peopel try to dresslike one thing and then fight like another it bothers me.
     
  8. Orkin

    Orkin New Member

    I'm with you, guys. Reenactment fighting has certain limitations, such as target areas, quality of strikes, forbidden moves, etc. This is so our friends come back and play next weekend. ;)

    But for a reenactment group, especially one o' them authentic down-to-the-underwear groups, to completely abandon any interest in "How it was done", is somewhat disappointing, especially when the public's there and the first thing they see is not whether your socks are dyed with madder, but whether you're holding your spear high, like in the tapestry, or low like some Greek guy from a previous millenium. :)

    So I think it should be part of the training for the members of a reenactment group, to know how it was really done, regardless of what is done in battle recreation.

    Has anyone read Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand's article about Early Medieval Shield Techniques in SPADA?
    SPADA
    Some of the pages may be readible, but do order it, it's an interesting article!

    Oh yeah, and :woo:
     
  9. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Early Medieval Shield Book

    Hi Orkin,

    I recently bought their I.33 Sword and Shield book, I was particularly interested in the trapping techniques with the buckler...
    It's given me a few ideas on broadsword & targe applications!

    Nice book with a layout much like the Eastern MA/JKD books with lots of photos....

    Louie :yeleyes:
     
  10. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I do reenactment from a WMA point of wiev. With that I mean that I've been so lucky to have a personal trainer for 2,5 years that could teach me "the latest" in WMA. He's taught me that when doing showfights, you do it for the audience, not for your own ego. When having that in mind, it's easier to deliver strikes that duplicates the ones that could have killed for real instead of doing it the easy way (slapping with the flat of the sword or wiggeling it).

    I don't mind loosing reenactmentfights, and that's good, because there are really many "wigglers" out there :(

    Funny you mention Longsword, Cudgel.
    Last summer, I did showfights with longsword for the first time, and it proved to be very different than WMA with longsword! I train Fiore del Libere, and all his moves and stances are focused on hitting targets that are forbidden in allmost all reenactmentsystems (head and hands)! There's allso a lot of false edge thrusts/swings from below towards the eyes/face that are NO-GO with blunt metal longswords. So despite having trained longsword for 2 years, I looked like a (bigger)rookie (than I am) on that field, as I had to discard of 80% of my learned tecniqes and invent on the spot things I could do.
     
  11. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Wel Ive been on the other side of that. Having fought oher reenactors that for some reason never trained for head shots or for lower arms shots and also didnt do very much evasive movement. Obviously they didnt fare too well aginst me or my group. The really funny thing was the SCA allows head shots and quite a few other targets like lower legs and arms and the people I fought against were members of the SCA.
     
  12. Isabella la Red

    Isabella la Red New Member

    kids love it

    Hi all well that was interesting.
    I am actually doing 3 re-enactment’s this weekend.
    One is a display for a school and the other two are for a past times faire.
    The only thing I see different is in re-enactment you use telegraphed moves.
    We don’t do head blows but everything else allowed. And we use metal weapons.
    I do it cause the kids love it. especially when I take my helmet off and they find I’m a women, really blows them away.
    :D
     
  13. Shaolin Dragon

    Shaolin Dragon Born again martial artist

    Isabella, what period do you do? Although mine is a Viking group, we also take part in mediaeval battles.

    We use headshots when training, but not when doing a "real" fight, as the adrenaline flows a little quicker, and it is that much easier to misjudge. We do not stab with swords for the same reason.
     
  14. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I fully aprove of Re-enacters, and want them here

    I allso practice re-enactment, but people must be aware that it is a different ballgame from WMA, just as modern sportsboxing is different from Mendoza's boxing form the 18th century.

    But I have this argument with a friend of mine that is a re-enacter veteran, that claims that if doing re-enactmaent for a long time, you'll end up as just as good a swordfighter as if you do WMA for a long time. and if you're a beginner in WMA you're not going to be able to do proper re-enactment and vice verca...
     
  15. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Re-enactment: Skiing in the tracks of the Birkebeiners

    Two journalists had historically plausible costumes and equipment made, and went 80 km over a mountain; re-enacting the route two "birkebeiners" went skiing in order to save an infant-candidate to the throne:


    (If you can read Norwegian or want to see more pictures, go here: )
    http://www.dagbladet.no/magasinet/2006/03/17/461024.html
     

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