I just listened to harvester of sorrow for two hours, if it wernt for map policies i would spew my hate for this type of training all over the place.
Ive noted my thoughts on the WJJF... clearly some really dont like their approach to training and I was wondering then what are the typical jujitsu sessions like out there with different organisations
The range is vast and a lot of westernized jujutsu suffers from the same problems that we see in WJJF. What exactly would you like to know? My art has a very heavy emphasis on kata-geiko and an integration across the board with weaponry. The feel and practice is very different to what is done in a lot of schools in the west.
Well I used to study with tjf (the jitsu foundation) and most of the criticisms of the wjjf would apply there aswell. A typical session was roughly like this group warm up for maybe 10 mins. Press ups, running in circles, squats, sit ups etc followed by around 10 mins of stretching. Ukemi for around 10 mins focussing on dynamic falls mainly, jumping over things/people and rolling out was a favourite but static falls and kneeling falls/rolls were also drilled. Techniques were demonstrated and then we would split off to practise in pairs/groups (sometimes higher/lower belts sometimes mixed) whilst the instructors walked around giving pointers and such. Not usualy much resistance at this point, arms hanging out waiting for counters and uki was often very helpfull all that stuff that everyone loves 30 mins or so of that and then another technique would be demonstrated and we would split off for another 30 mins or there would be 30 mins or so of randori. Striking techniques were taught (glossed over realy) about 1 session in 4 and the self defence stuff was done for around 10-15mins 1 session in 2. That's a fairly typical lesson structure, if a grading was coming up then people would almost exclusively work their grading material and if a competition was coming up then a lot more randori would be done. I don't know how that compares to other orgs or anything and it's been a couple of yrs since I trained with TJF. I enjoyed training with them and hold no bad feelings there but I wouldn't go back as I've found another path a prefer. As I said above most of the criticisms of wjjf would apply to TJF aswell. You could learn to look after yourself through them (eventually) and will have a grounding in all ranges of combat and a good yard stick to measure other clubs/styles by. That's how TJF stacks up in my experience of 3 different clubs, those who have trained longer or among more clubs may see things differently.
Unrealistic material at gradings is not so dissimilar from the forms and step sparring required for belt progression in TKD and karate. Someone (I think the OP) mentioned Robert Clarke's dubious financial handlings, yet the IBJJF charges >$100 for tournament entries (which is the highest I've ever encountered) and there was that whole money laundering thing a couple years ago. These are just some off the top of my head, but I imagine one could quite easily find more instances of the pot calling the kettle black.
Out of interest .. What are the expectations of our MAP friends and colleagues from a jujitsu / jujutsu training session .. What are the expectations of people attending classes. ?. As an uke you get to chose pretty much how much resistance you want to put into a technique.. As a tori there is an expectation that you will not injure an uke .. Some people are excellent uke , some are not ... Leaving aside all the various organisations and politics.. Just saying ..
An uke that pushes me in the appropriate direction and who knows the waza well enough to understand where my flaws are when doing it. A thinking, acting opponent. Not a crash test dummy. Oh and one who does his best to kick my **** within the confines of the drill or technique.
My expectations were that I would be taught sensible techniques to deal with violence. I would be taught them in a safe manner and I would be able to test that knowledge/training in a controlled manner. My jujitsu training was always safe, the randori was always controlled and most of the techniques were sensible. I however feel that judo teaches me throws and ground fighting better and boxing teaches me strikes better so that's I how I now train. I am thankful for the training I received especialy in how to link my judo and boxing together as jujitsu is the only place a have trained both skills concurrently. I am also thankfull for my understanding of standing locks, wrist locks and pressure points allmost all my knowledge of these areas comes from jujitsu. As such my jujitsu training met most of my expectations but my demands have now changed slightly and jujitsu (as I studied it) is no longer the best suited style for me. As for uke yes you can choose how much resistance you put up when your uke but you can't always controll how much resistance your uke puts up when tori. More randori would go a long way to resolving that I'm sure and you can always ask your partners to be less cooperative. With regards to wrist locks and standing locks they were almost never used in a randori setting and were never coached for that meaning little pressure training with those techniques but that may differ across clubs and styles. Also people with little to no striking background don't always know they are leaving their strikes out or know why this is a bad thing. Those are my criticisms with what I did through TJF, as I said I'm glad I did train with them and I learned a lot however if I had my time again I would have taken a different route to get where I am now.
I have a friend who is second degree black belt under the IJF. He wishes dearly he could trade it for something more useful.
I'm not sure this is the fault of any particular art. Has your friend made himself the very best he can be. Has he drilled the techniques until they are part of him? Could another practitioner in the same school have had very different results?
"Art" is just another name for training program and a black belt is the licensing of said training program. If someone has completed and been licensed under a training program, the quality of said person most definatly is the "fault" of the training program.
Sorry, I meant the jutsu foundation (the one that's mostly involved at unis). He was a qualified black belt. The irony is that the black belt tests are quite strict and very well regulated, but he knew nothing about properly breaking balance to throw someone. Even though they sparred and people compete, it's pretty flawed the way they train. They learn a lot of throws and two man drills, but sort of expect a predetermined reaction. Not saying all places trained like that, but his opinion was that it was a good art with unrealistic expectations and the competition ruleset needed a bit of adjusting.
I'm genuinely surprised by this. The general consensus in various places (including bullshido, at least when I last checked) is that those that get through to brown and black belts in TJF or its various splinter styles are actually pretty good at fighting (I'm one myself, so this may be a somewhat conceited view, I admit). The issue is usually at the lower grades, as the university settings can mean that training has to reset to beginner level across the board once a year, which can stifle development to some extent. At the higher end of the grade scale, the goal is to push each other harder and harder to develop knowledge of techniques. I'm really surprised that someone could get to second dan in TJF without working out how to take balance. Judo black belts will likely be better at taking balance in a sparring situation (though this isn't guaranteed, as a 2nd dan instructor in my style recently discovered in an open Judo competition), but to get that far, to have studied throwing from various entries and grips, to have learned the nage-no-kata and to have survived at least two dan gradings in the style and not to have picked up the principles and application of kuzushi is, as I opened with, genuinely surprising. My only possible thought is that as the style has expanded so much since inception there have been some lapses in across-the-board standards, but I've never personally met a 2nd dan in TJF who didn't understand kuzushi. Can you ask him if he'd like to post here? It would be genuinely interesting to get his views, if nothing else to see if he says anything which resonates as a weakness in my own training.
Chadderz friend and WJJF Black belt point of view. Hi all, I am Chadderz friend/training partner. Just to give you some background as Chadderz has said I am a 2nd degree black belt with the WJJF as well as a qualified instructor. I trained in Liverpool and took both my black belt and 2nd dan in the HQ. I have since switched to BJJ, which I am now a blue belt under Rick Young, Thai, JKD, MMA and some Judo training (which is mostly to complement my BJJ). When I trained under the WJJF I thought I understood how to break an opponents balance in order to throw them and how to move in order to block/dodge punches. But since changing Martial arts I discovered how wrong I was, and I happily say how wrong I was! The WJJF methods are not pressure tested enough, the set curriculum teaches a lot that has not use, is too static, proper movement is never taught and you are not taught how to take a punch properly. Most people I know that trained in WJJF if they got punched would panic or freeze. It can be compared to other martial arts as it does claim to teach elements of each (standing, striking, throwing and grappling). I would personally recommend trying other martial arts with more practical application that what the WJJF teach as I have seen people grade who at the time I was at a much higher level than and I have never seen anyone fail. It has become all about money and there is a lot of internal politics, which I discovered when doing coaching. If anyone has any question I will do my best to answer. I don't want to speak ill of my club as I am still friend with my instructor who did teach me a lot but pretty much everything of use was not meant to be taught anymore.
