I don't know why I wrote blue belt. I meant black. Regarding BJJ vs. Judo. First, I don't know what BJJ players "holding their own" exactly means. Does it mean they're on the same level? Does it mean they do *ok*? Does that mean they're decidedly inferior but do not look ridiculous? There's a lot of room for interpretation. I was discussing this very topic today with a Judo 3rd Dan who teaches a standup class at an excellent local BJJ school. His contention was that BJJ's game as a whole was lacking standing up (bad footwork, body positioning, grips...) and that's why they were easy to throw (and why he offered that school to teach that stand up class). Now it was also his contention that it wasn't the case in certain counties with a richer Judo history like Brazil, some European countries. Now if both BJJ and Judo's respectively produced similarly skilled people in the standup game, we probably wouldn't see BJJers cross training in Judo - but they do cross train. I think their standup is getting better and better precisely because of the cross training. I understand the point made about the shared similarities between wjjf and BJJ, but is it enough to make the comparison valid when pitting then two against. One another? This is no different than comparing BJJ vs JJJ (even though it appears that wjjf is not a form of JJJ) in that aren't we're comparing two styles that put emphasize different things? (unless wjjf claims expertise in grappling - do they?). When pitting BJJ vs. more classical forms of jujutsu grappling, we're not on a level plane because we're comparing different training methods, different techniques and vastly different strategies, approaches and goals. BJJ's approach is to bring the fight to the ground where it is more effective than any other art. That's not the case for jujutsu at all. Historically, it's even quite the contrary and grappling was a last resort. That affect to this day how JJJ and other gendai jj styles approach grappling, their techniques and training methods. Those are the reasons I find those comparison flawed, not because the outcome favors one art. Wjjf specifically might suck. I don't know the system well enough to make an informed call. But when we're talking about a "novice" BJJ student i.e.a white belt, what kind of white belt are we talking about? A white belt with 1 month of training? 18? If it's the former, there's definitely a problem. If it's the latter, we must consider that BJJ spends much more time on the ground and rolling at full speed. Let's assume a BJJ and wjjf student each train 3 hours a week and that the BJJ student spends 80% of his time doing groundwork vs 15% for wjjf. That means that in one year, the BJJ will amass almost 125 hours of experience, skills and knowledge. It would take over 5 years for the wjjf or JJJ student to get to the same point, which is about the amount of time it probably takes in JJJ and gendai jj styles to get to the black belt level. Also, it actually would take them over 5 years IF their training methods, techniques, strategies, approaches and goals aligned with those of BJJ. But they don't. Then again for all I know wjjf might claim grappling expertise and their life on the ground for all I know and my all argument becomes moot. :bang: but otherwise, I still think that those direct comparisons are flawed.
I'd say you had a point if we were talking about boxing, but dude got tooled by someone with less than a year of experience and he's supposed to be acquainted with grappling. You can absolutely compare martial arts with different training methods- some work, others don't.
It's a grappling based system being compared to a grappling based system - the comparison couldn't really get much fairer Comparing WJJF to PTK or Sayoc may yield a cry of "foul", but a system that does locks and throws bs a system that does locks and flows? The only objection is from the side that loses too much face in the conparison
SAMBO covers grappling, throwing, boxing, kicking, clinchfighting, gripfighting and several peculiar exercises. We manage to not get smashed consistently on the ground by equivalent Jits guys, much less first-years. Why is WJJF different?
Because you train with a higher degree of resistance/live training rather than compliant partner based training, and if you are competition active you will be training more regularly than your typical MA hobbiest. Cheers Dan93
I see what you are saying but here is the problem: The WJJF guy entered a grappling tournament. It wasn't a BJJ tournament, it was a grappling tournament open to anyone run by "sports ju jitsu" club (not the WJJF). Clearly the WJJF guy thought what he learned with the WJJF was going to be good enough to help him in this tournament. Obviously that wasn't the case, as he lost to a teenager who he outweighed, which is to say nothing of the comparative amount of time they had trained. Comparison of training methods is essential in order to determine how good those methods are. This is of course my personal opinion. For me, if I had trained in a system that teaches locks, takedowns and submissions for at least 4 years (minimum time to get a BB according to WJJF Ireland) and I got that easily overcome by a smaller person who had been training 10 months in another system that uses locks, takedowns and submissons, that would cause me to reconsider what I was doing. Again, just a personal opinion. I know some people would carry on regardless.
Our of curiosity what were the rules? I'm also curious to see how the 'sports ju jitsu' clubs guys did compare to the WJJF guys in general.
For that I'm not sure. The comp was ran by the NITJA. That tournament would be 7 or 8 years ago at least.
I agree you can compare them one vs the other if the training method is the only element that doesn't align. After all, if WJJF or whatever style's training method is not optimum, it's their own damn fault and no one else's. It's mat time that I find is a big differentiator. A BJJ student can amass as much ground fighting in one year time as some other arts' students do in 4, 5 years or more. And the goals are vastly different. BJJ's goal is to dominate on the ground. I'd venture to wjjf is to defend against most common i.e. untrained attacker. I have no idea why this wjjf guy entered this tournament to be honest. Maybe he was overconfident and totally out of touch with the differences in training method, experience and goals between his style/school and the one of trained, competition-oriented grapplers.
I agree on the overconfidence part like I said above. Obviously the wjjf was misguided or delusional about his grappling abilities, but I still do think that there is a correlation with training time in those BJJ white belt vs. whatever art higher rank scenarios. I agree. I think the people who do carry on are the people who think sports and SD are sort of mutually exclusive. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Sports BJJ does carry over a great deal (especially the fundamentals and the bulletproof training method) though some things need to be tweaked a little but for pure SD applications. Though in the end, I have come to understand that it is much easier to tweak your technique for SD when you have a strong sports base rather the other way around.
i did WJJF up to brown belt. Comments - the strikes are slower and weaker than most other striking systems. The throws are weaker than Judo, and this includes a fake belief that many dodgy wjjf techniques will actually work against a difficult opponent. The groundwork is weaker than BJJ or Judo. The locks are not as good as Aikido. in summary, its watered-down, compliant and lacks realism. The good parts are that most of the time you get through the classes safely and it can be child friendly. Also there is the illusion of good progress through the ten belts to get to the dan grade. Their dan grades are fairly harmless however. Massive syllabus that seems to include lots of archaic stuff that doesnt work or only made sense when dressed in a suit of armour and on a horse. wjjf - i would advise a friend to try something else first.
