That's a pretty sweeping statement. I doubt anyone believes they're following a false God. Let me pinch hit for you then. Not everyone follows one of the Desert Faiths or other monotheistic/henotheistic systems. Others are polytheist, pantheist, panentheist, or what have you. For some, the magic is part of the religion, so to separate magic from religion is artificial in some respects. The problem isn't "witchcraft"... it's abuse of power that's the problem, whether you're a witch doctor, priest, rabbi or nun. Best regards, -Mark
Ever considred that Amenhotep, i.e. Akhnaten, might have been Abraham? And the name Abraham a derivation of Akhnaten? Ever wondered why it became so important for the Hebrews to emphasise not worshipping the sun? Or why the did, or who they were in captivity with? Akhnaten probalby had the single most influential idea that any human has ever had - there is only one god. Astounding.
You're highlighting something pretty interesting there Mark - notice how for the religious people, JK especially, the "bad" things done in the name of religion mean that the person who did them can't truly be of that religion. But the same idea isn;t extended to other belief sytems like witchcraft - for THEY are defined by the bad things that they do. Why not saythat the abusive witches weren't the real witches? Why insist that magic is defined by evil practice? Double standard, and a trick played on their own mind. "Shackles formed with thoughts" as William Blake said.
No actually I'm quite happy (the happiest I've been) because I can accept most people pretty much as they are. If someone is a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, a Sikh or whatever I don't think with anti-religious prejudice "grr - there's a religious person - blooming religions are the root of all evil!" I might think "great - I can see how those values are helpful for you and help you to be a more kind and generous person." And if I talk to a scientist, I don't think with anti-scientific prejudice "grr - there's a scientist - blooming science is evil, promoting evolution!" I might think "hey - that's great! what can you tell me about centrifugal force / how my kidneys work / how light travels through space?..." And if I talk to a Socialist I don't think with anti-left wing prejudice "blooming lefty - it never worked in Russia" I might think "yes - I agree wholeheartedly with egalitarian values and fairer distribution of resources. Let's just talk about the animals, if we may..." And if I see Anne Atkins or Anne Widdecombe on "The Big Questions" I don't think "blooming right-wing Christian!" I very often think "yes, I agree with those values you are expressing. It is refreshing to hear someone telling it like it is so clearly." Now I probably wouldn't agree with any of the above people on everything, because, like most people, I'm a 3 dimensional human being with an assortment of views. I try not to have views on everything though - I couldn't possibly be sufficiently well informed about everything (I don't think anyone is really - we live in a world with a lot of opinions floating around). So if I'm unsure about something, I might take advice from someone I trust to have their heart in the right place. Actually, to be honest, I think the problem is people thinking they know what the problem is. It is self apparent that if someone goes against the basic moral teachings of a faith they are not observing it. If a Jew or a Christian breaks the ten commandments then they are probably not, at that time, observing their faith. That doesn't mean they are not a Jew or a Christian, but it could mean that at that moment they are not really acting on behalf of their faith, but on behalf of themselves. This isn't an absolute though - they might know precisely why, with or without divine inspiration, they are carrying out God's wishes, and they will then also know that they need to answer to Him for it if they've got it wrong. It is very straightforward. Magical manipulation of supernatural forces is in itself a bad thing, just like bullying or blackmailing someone is, in itself, a bad thing. Yes, even the seemingly good stuff is bad because it makes people think they have special supernatural powers which feeds their egos. If someone has a pagan belief system that inspires them to do good deeds, inspire goodness in others and think good thoughts AND they do not practice any magical rites, rituals or spells, then that may well be fine and dandy.
Does that feed their egos more than thinking they are special to God, speak for God, loved by God, elect of God? Did you never go to Mass? Your name sounds Polish - surely you went to Mass? I've never seen such a magical ceremony - the whole thing is lifted from Roman rites, lol - even the structure of the Church is, even the clothes they wear, the language they use - will be soon again. It's all a pagan rite. Anyway,
I have seen that temple. It is a nice site in Northumberland. And yes Mithras did rise on the 3rd day to slay the bull. If belief is to be read, all those born on December 25 were all saints,holy men, seers ETC and all belief regard the rising of the sun on the 25th after 3 days of darkness their God. There are similarities in all faiths that Christians follow. But it is a shame the real Cristianity does not follow the original teachings of the Gnostics. As for witches? What's wrong with them. Some of my friends are witches/satanists. They do not impose their belief on me unlike the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and the Christian church up the road from me. They do not annoy me, I do not burn down their church. Simple as. But then, if it is what they believe, then let them. It hurts me none. Just to prove Mithras belief existed that came from Iran here is the picture:
So in fact while you claim to respect every religion under the system above you are willing to make a sweeping generalisation that would for instance place a 'religion' like Shintoism into the category of evil magic as it pretty much revolves around seeking assistance from various kami through rituals and ceremonies (even if those involved are for instance seeking health for their family members). Your subjective view on what is 'magic' based on Christian doctrine becomes the standard by which all religious activity should be judged to be pure or evil. I think the phrase 'Superstitutions are what other people do' applies here... if we just replace superstitution with evil magic.
Oh they were WAY off. Yes, I've read up on it and been to some Gnostic seminars and a guided meditation session at one of their centres.
Well it sounds like magic which I consider to be a bad thing. The term "evil magic" implies especially malevolent stuff to me.
Yes so 'boom' the centuries old religious tradition of Japan practiced by millions and with a massive impact on the culture of Japan disappears in a puff of magic - inherently bad and not befitting for wise people to follow. The literally thousands of beautiful, interesting and unusual shrines covering the landscape of japan are sites of an inherently bad practice which ideally should be stopped (correct me if I'm wrong here). On the basis of just this one example I would suggest that it indicates your viewpoint does not lead to tolerance and understanding of other religious traditions.
And what do you consider evil? Satan talking to God over Job who then had all his family killed off by un-natural disasters and was covered in some form of leprosy? Satan did not do that, that was God. When people read the Bible you see that God is basically a bully. He gave Job wealth then killed his family, created starvation, gave illness. What "God" would do that? What God would allow people to die just so they can worsip him? It all seems like Satan is the better for he does nothing while God has wrath and will do all the smiting as he sees fit. To me, christianity has caused more wars over the belief than Pagans/Witches have. It seems to me christianity has nothing more than violence, hatred and the ability to kill innocents under the guise of a name. If you want to read about belief read The Occult by Professor Colin Wilson from 1980. It is still in print and it goes a long way into talking about the hidden parts of belief and does bring up a good few question regarding Satan, God and witchcraft.
Many aspects of Mithraism were absorbed by Christianity - it was essential to do so as the cult of Mithras was an enormously powerful influence in the Roman army.
Not ALL religions, CKava. You're a scientist at heart, right? So is pseudoscience OK too? No - you distinguish between real science and pseudoscience. Well I feel the same way about religion. As the Chief Rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks puts it "One way or another, if you worship anything less than God, anything less than the totality of all, then you get to idolatry..." Put another way, I don't advocate all political systems either. I'm sure no one would think that is unreasonable. Job is also rewarded in the end for his unshakable faith and devotion. The story contains allegorical truth that sometimes bad things happen to good people, but we cannot afford to rage against God or the Universe and demand to be treated fairly, because we can only see the world from a single viewpoint. God has a whole universe to juggle. Satan wants to try to prove that people are only good because good things have happened to them. Satan is very mean-spirited for asking God to take away Job's possessions and blessings in a bid to prove his point. God evidently determines that a greater good will come of accepting the challenge. The question is not why do the righteous suffer, but how will they respond to suffering? If people do right merely to be rewarded by God, then their righteousness is worthless - even Satan recognises this. And if people abandon their faith because of hardship, again their righteousness is worth little. According to the book of Job, genuine faith weathers even the most difficult of storms. As Job puts it "Even if He should kill me, I will trust in Him." In very broad terms, you could see it as being about taking a positive and trusting view of the universe in spite of everything, because darkness and misery corrupts and can make people do bad things if they fall prey to self-pity, envy, jealousy and rage.
Sure, why not...... They conjured them to kill people. True story. Seeproof! http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7527/dragonwitch1si1.jpg And here is [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5TXa8PH8QI]someone[/ame] that knows the abilities of witches, she is going to be getting turned into a dragon herself. A 'mean' one might I add.... It's ok though, she will be turned back, but.... Only to be turned into a bread eating shark named, 'Kitty Cat Shark'. It's all quite frightening. :yeleyes:
How is this conversation even happening? It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. (personal attack removed)
For what it's worth, Carys, you seem to me like a sincere and pleasant person as does your Grandmother. However, in a Biblical sense I'm not entirely sure you'd really count as witches or sorcerers. I don't think folk magic in Britain remained untouched by Judeo-Christian influence and moral sensibilities. No one exists in a vacuum. The "Ancient world" (I use the term here to refer to the pre-Judaic influence world) was riddled with rather dark magic practices. In Ancient Greece for example, during its supposed "golden age" of democracy (providing you were a free-born man), archeological evidence shows us that people would put curses on each other on a daily basis over things as trivial as business rivalry. They've found little coffins with effigies along with incriminating documents to prove that people were trying to magically extinguish their competitors as part of everyday life. FQ says the original biblical text concerning witches really said that you should not suffer a poisoner to live. I'm yet to discover whether he's correct or not, but the term "witch" was used in quite a few places in Tyndale's translation (the very first English translation) which predated the King James Bible, so it can't all be King James' doing. I'll have to talk to my student who is studying Ancient Hebrew and Greek at University as part of his Biblical Studies course. That said, Bible scriptures do seem pretty clear about not consorting with sorcerers or diviners. I thought people might be interested in seeing what the Bible says about witches and witchcraft so I've written out some passages. These are from the original Tyndale translation with each verse repeated taken from the New World Translation (which is generally known for having good word for word accuracy rather than a poetic or literary style). Something I find interesting here is that Simon of Samaria is given the opportunity to become baptized - he isn't persecuted in any way, showing that within the Christian tradition redemption is possible for a sorcerer. However, in this case, Simon doesn't really understand the spirit of what is happening when the Apostles lay on hands, thinking that they have a power that he can buy. He doesn't realize that the power of faith that comes from God is within everyone already. Obviously opinions differ as to precisely what happens if Christians practice the laying on of hands, but it is not without significance that while healing may be referred to as "signs" or "miracles" it is never referred to as magic. My own belief is that what happened with Jesus and early Christian healing was a removal of fatalism, negativity and psychosomatic illness; and a gift of faith and optimism, along with a relief from the bondage of fatalistic superstition. The world view at that time was that people were responsible for everything that happened to them - that they were having to pay for their sins or for the sins of their forebears or perhaps for sins committed in previous lives. This was then exploited by sorcerers and charlatans who claimed to have powers and kept people dependent on them by use of placebo medicines, rites and rituals. The early Christians, I believe, showed people that they didn't need quack medicine - that their own faith could heal them and that they didn't need to pay for past sins, and if they were sorry, their sins would be forgiven, because God does not hold grudges. This cannot be exploited though - a sinner should not rely on this but should, in Jesus' words, "go and sin no more." It probably can't be stated strongly enough that Jesus himself said "your faith has healed you." For further reading check out "Jesus Before Christianity" by Albert Nolan http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Befor...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196939973&sr=8-1
