Witches.... Evil? Immoral?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by WatchfulAbyss, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Split from the thread: The stuff you see in the media does not represent Islam here (Here in the religion section.)

    And alot of people feel that involvement with any God(s) driven faith is excepting a magical existence. And prayer is looked upon as a magical ritual.

    It is not the same as your prayer. That doesn't mean it's not a type of prayer.


    In your belief, yes, I understand that's how you see it. But we aren't talking about your belief. I don't think they are worlds apart, I honestly don't know why it would bother anyone that they weren't. I mean, why see it as negative? It's not like prayer that uses ritual magic, or seemingly magic type ritual is uncommon...

    Guilty of these acts or not.... Didn't matter. A witch was a witch, it didn't matter to what degree. In no way am I inclined to give a free moral pass to a group of people that claim moral absolutes in consideration of relative features. I would think that pointing to how wrong it was, would be something people would clammer to do in order to keep it from ever taking place again.


    If I ever get any extra cash, I may get around to it, but the little one and bills keep me strapped most of the time......

    I will check that out....

    Wicca is a modern invention and anyone who says it isn't, has been misled. There are reconstructionist that work out the older stuff such as, celtic traditions for example. To say they have it a hundred percent isn't true, but to call it a full re-invention, isn't either. It would have been an easier task to put things back together in these faiths/paths, were they not forced underground I assume.

    I understood the idea, I basically said it wasn't a common one. These crafts were about as varied as it gets.

    (I said in the assumption that it was real.) Since it isn't real, then alot of those people died for no reason at all.



    Not all of them do aspire to become God like, nor am I convinced that was a wide spread case then either. They moved as a preemptive attack on those people. That is my point. It is only from a specific view of which faith is correct can you even place the concept of them as being immoral. Hence my point that those people were ignorant to any view but their own.

    If your Gods pointed you to it being 'ok' and it's seen as a naturaul aspect of your beliefs, then they aren't being immoral. If things are going to be seen as relative to the time and views in question, then it needs to be seen from the witches position as well.

    The term was as I understand it, simply meant to say "without a God" and was most likely a charge, like the term 'nihilist' for example. But yes, it is an extension of the phrase nontheism, the connotations attached to either term were most likely meant to be insulting born of disapproval. So we agree here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2007
  2. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    I know that in Scotland most women who were killed as "witches" were either senile old women who muttered to themselves, Widows seeking support from their parishes or religious dissenters falsely accused ie Protestants or mumblers. So they were murdered to save spending any money on them or because they did not toe the line, no old religion connection at all.
     
  3. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Or rich widows / spinsters. There was an economic angle, too. IIRC the Church got half and the accuser got a significant portion of whatever the accused owned.
     
  4. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Those are points I have neglected as well, purely malicious aspects scapegoated on to religion. It's a bit off putting, but it was present.
     
  5. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    The problem is that there is an assumption here that the only correct position to take is a relativist one. This is a modern, democratic, liberal, relativist standpoint. It is OK to talk in terms of different religions and even different gods IF you take a polytheistic perspective - if you allow the possibility of different gods existing within a relative universe where all opinions are equal. This "all views are equally valid" stance differs from an interfaith perspective that specifically tries to find the commonalities between different religions. The former might tolerate sadistic Satanic practices where the latter would not because it would be in direct opposition to the values of faiths that were based on benevolent ideals.

    The relativist world is very different to that of a devout monotheist who wishes to follow the One True God's will to the best of their ability. Magic is forbidden within the major faiths.
     
  6. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    Anthropologically speaking, that is not entirely true, jk. There is magic in Christianity, it is merely of a sort that is not human directed. After all, one could make a very real argument that consecration, eucharist and blessings are a form of magic.
     
  7. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'm sure very few Christians, leaders or laity, would acknowledge that perspective though.
     
  8. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    Doesn't mean it isn't true, merely that they are not acknowledging aspects of their own religions. When talking about religion anthropologically, there are very real elements of magic to all religion. That does not invalidate religion, merely a common theme.
     
  9. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Mythical?????????
     
  10. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    My morals concerning murder are not relative. But with that aside, I'm not using my moral position. I'm using theirs. Killing people based on a superstition, is murder, killing people based on fear of that which is strange, is murder. Witches by and large were killed for the title alone..... Murder?

    [edit]
    The only reason I pointed to anything relative was because of the line thought that, killing witches may not seem so bad per what people believed at the time. Which is a view you offered. So I offered the view from the other side.


    See above.... (Is this a bad thing?)

    All opinions aren't equal, and might I add, I'm not the one suggesting a relative perspective. It's wrong to kill witches now, that means it was wrong then. I'm not the one that changed these views on those things. I'm the one 'not' allowing a relativistic moral pass on what happened.

    But with that said, if you think we should consider those moral relativistic views, then the door swings both ways. Which means you would have to see witches (Or any faith pagan or otherwise. For that matter, lets just be real broad and say, any magic user or person embracing a magical existence.) moral standing from their point of view.

    I'm not out to change your views concerning pagan paths. I'm just pointing out that what happened was wrong...

    I'm against murder, and anyone who commits it. This isn't about me sticking up for those that did wrong and died because of it, this is about those that didn't. This isn't about satanist, we are talking about death over a title, a word.

    But anway, the common features are there, if only those involved could see that, maybe people could stop dyng for no reason... How many people lost their lives unwarranted? How many suffered? How many people still suffer where religion is concerned? How many more will?

    (Lol.... Religion would fair much better if it weren't for people. (Yeh, I know what I just said. :rolleyes: ) I don't see anything inherently wrong with religion, but people sure make it hard not to.)

    Killing people over a title is benevolent how? Just to add again, I'm not sticking up for those that murdered people and were put to death as a result. I'm sticking up for those that were murdered over a word.


    I geuss it is different. But only because you don't acknowledge the magical aspects in those religions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  11. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    Well, of course they wouldn't as they worship the "One True God", right? If you examine the practices as Her Dolphiness suggested, you would have to agree there is a bit of "Magic" in Christianity. This is true of the church from the Catholics to the odd little snake handlers in the southern states. Certainly one could make an arguement that these practices are something else but that would be just indulging in a lot of semantic wrangling.
     
  12. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    Her Dolphiness?

    When did that happen?

    Perhaps the difference between Christian magic and some forms of Neo-pagan magic is the source of the directive. The assumption is that God is the source of all supernatural power and directs magical acts as he wills while some forms of Neo-pagan magical belief is human directed. Of course, that might be a practice in splitting hairs.
     
  13. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    I don't think it's to far off the mark, it just depends as always. The views vairy so widely with pagans I would say your almost down to consulting individuals. In my opinion the myths surrounding magic did more harm to the 'idea of what a witch is' more so than what they really are and were. That's even if they were one. The truth is, (from what I understand anyway) most witchcraft didn't concern a united front but rather varying family traditions.

    Some pagans are even in line with your views on christian magic. Some don't do magic at all and are merely pantheist types, some do. Some have rules and moral reflection concerning magic coming back on them. Some don't and are only concerned with intentions effecting the conscious. Some are just healers and herbalist. (Some just watch to much tv.) It can be a mess at least as far can tell anyway. But your point seems fair enough to me anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I don't think it is splitting hairs at all. As they say - "the Devil is in the detail."
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    What I find absolutely gutwrenchingly embarassing is that in the 21st Century in the western world with modern scientific education. There are people discussing magic as if it was real. People believed in magic in the days gone by because they were ignorant, uneducated and created something to explain things that they didn't understand.
    As for aspiring to godlike powers, isn't that what all science is trying to do. We wish to control the matter and energy around us with the physical sciences. In genetics we wish to control the very material we are created from. This knowledge grants real power why aren't they immoral?

    The Bear.
     
  16. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    They can be immoral, PB. That's why we need religious morality to tell us that life is sacred and that we shouldn't be committing atrocities such as building nuclear bombs or making hybrid animal / human embryos.
     
  17. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Of course witches are evil, otherwise what's the point? Without the black masses, curses and cackling, you've just got an old lady - and old ladies are too busy baking cakes and feeding cats to be immoral.
     
  18. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Building nuclear bomb is immoral. Hmmmm, what if they are used for asteroid defence. Say we know an asteroid is coming to wipe out life on earth and the only way to save us is by building nuclear missile, your saying that is immoral.
    (How come the only people to use a nuclear bomb were christians and in fact Harry S. Trueman was a dedicated baptist. Those moral teaching didn't do much there.)

    As Human / Animal hybrids, why not? The only reason we could create hybrids is because we are made from the same genetic material, in short we are animals, just a different species. Our closest relatives share 96% of the same gene sequences we do. Imagine the possibilities for diversity, Humans with the ability to breathe underwater or endure extreme cold. Not to mention enhanced immune systems or curing genetic diseases.

    The Bear.
     
  19. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Well I'd have thought that if an individual authorised the killing of innocent bystanders, for example by use of nuclear missiles, that is not strictly in line with Christianity, but then I'm not having to make difficult decisions during war time, so I'm not the best person to comment.

    The genetic stuff is pretty abominable in my view because people will use it to try to eradicate any traits that they consider undesirable and being "imperfect" will carry even greater stigma than it does now. ( Life is seen as disposable enough as it is, what with abortions and IVF fertilisation selecting only the strongest fetuses and destroying the rest. Oh, it makes my heart ache - there are so many unwanted children that could be adopted instead of people thinking they have some kind of "right" to their own children that somehow makes it acceptable to destroy fetuses. )

    Far better to accept some things as they are and not meddle with genetics. That doesn't rule out medicine though - it's all there in the Hebrew scriptures about not breeding mules and about physicians being good. I'm not into thinking "yes but why? - why can't things change? why can't this principle be taken to its utmost extreme?" Sometimes we just need to find a balance and if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

    My heart really aches with the way things are going.
     
  20. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Part of the mistake in that is to assume that "magic" refers to a kind of bogus science, whereas for many "magical" practitioners that is a definition imposed by outsiders with no understanding of their practice.

    "Magic" is about breaking the rules of ordinary reality; about generating genuine percpetual, physical, emotional or even intellectual responses that are beyond ordinary states of reality; perhaps through drugs, chanting, trickery, trance work, starving, fear, sex, and my favourite, just through thinking. Beware whose paradigm you are viewing it through.
     

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