Wing Chun punches VS Boxing jab and cross?

Very interesting.

If you ever have to time or inclination to explain further, I'd love to hear it.

 

It's hard to give an abbreviated version but one day I may do a larger write up on it

Back to vertcial fists, here is a great and oft posted clip of "The Guvnor" - 2:19 for some great fistic examples

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DraD1LFGkr8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DraD1LFGkr8[/ame]

 

That guy is a lesson in the power of intent.

...and then some.

 

They are, however, tied to hitting with the correct part of the glove. In general backfists and hammerfists (or other punches that hit with the same areas of glove) aren't allowed under most rulesets.

 

Absolutely. I only really call strikes that land with the forefist a punch though. All the rest are "strikes".

 

If we look at the following:

- XingYi has Pi, Zhun, Beng, Pao, Heng.
- boxing has jab, cross, uppercut, hook,
- TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick,
- Judo has hip throw, leg twist, leg lift, leg block.
- WC has ...

What tools will you put under WC ... ?

 

In terms of simplfying a system

Juk chun choi
Pak sao
Lop sao
Jut sao
bil jee

 

It's funny you should say that, because I had a similar(ish) conversation with my Taiji teacher a few months ago. I had to correct him, too!

 

but its not just about the fist shape, its about body structure behind the punch as well, they lead with one side, rotate the hips into the strike dont have the elbow in the centre or the shoulder dropped, all of which wing chun does
on a side note most of the clips i have seen of bare knuckle fighting, either irish british or the early ufcs included a lot of hooks overhands and uppercuts, it always seemed to me that when they really wanted to generate power they throw punches which drive from the floor and rotate through the hips, like you see a fair bit in this clip,
its not that throwing a vertical punch is wrong, just that relying on it to be your major weapon seems to go against common sense and well actual combat experience
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6yNXQXYrg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6yNXQXYrg[/ame]

 

If you want to use your jab to knock your opponent down, the "arm punch" is not enough.

Will you consider this as a "jab"?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBy9kcAEaNs&index=30"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBy9kcAEaNs&index=30[/ame]

 

Exactly! I don't see the jab as being a punch that you 'commit' to in the way that you would (say) a cross. You're not aiming to do maximum 'damage'. The jab is essentially a probing punch, or used to control distance in either attack or defence.

No, that isn't a jab. It's a straight punch, but he doesn't retract it afterwards. A jab is a quick 'in and out'.

 

In

- boxing, you put your strong side back.
- wrestling, you put your strong side forward.

If you cross train both systems, you will put your strong side forward. When you do that you have to commit your jab in order to knock your opponent down because you don't have choice, you back cross may be weaker than your forward jab.

The way that I look at this is the

- jab is a leading arm straight punch.
- cross is a back arm straight punch.

Whether you use jab to set up, or to finish, it will be entirely up to you.

 

What about hooks, body hooks, uppercuts etc.?

And, just because your dominant hand is leading, doesn't mean you can't still hit hard with your off-hand.

 

You can drive a vertical-fist straight with the lower body.

Although I agree with your point about "major weapon", as a straight will never be as powerful as an arced strike.

 

I assume hook and uppercut can be done by both leading arm or back arm so there is no strong side forward or strong side backward issue.

We may get into the "jab definition" here. For simplicity, I prefer to call "jab" a leading arm straight punch. It can be vertical, it can be horizontal as well. It can be used for head punch, it can be used for body shot as well.

For example, in the following clip, the jab is set up by a cross. Whether one wants to call it "black tiger eats heart", or "vertical punch", I would like to call it "jab" for simplicity.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlwV3ZpqibU&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlwV3ZpqibU&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

 

I would differentiate between a jab and a straight in terms of commitment and power.

A straight punch is commited and powerful, with the body behind it.

A jab is a probing or distracting strike thrown to set up a power shot.

Of course, this is a spectrum, so some crossover is possible. I don't think you can draw a distinct line between a jab and a lead-hand straight punch.

 

All kicks can be used as a distracting, set up kick. We just don't give a distracting set up front kick a different name.

I have collected all the striking tools in my toolbox. It includes:

1. hammer fist,
2. side strike (XingYi Heng Chuan),
3. vertical punch (jab),
4. horizontal punch (cross),
5. hook,
6. back fist,
7. uppercut,
8. palm strike.

All 8 tools are intended to be used for finish move.

I like to use

- hook to set up under hook,
- uppercut to set up over hook,
- back fist to set up arm control,
- ...

We can use all striking tools for distracting set up. Why do we need to add a special "non-committed jab" in our toolbox? It adds no additional value IMO.

 

Not true as far as I can tell. My experience in cross training grappling and striking arts (in a MMA context) is that you learn to wrestle with your strong-side back, rather than learning to strike with your dominant side forward. I believe that having your dominant side back in striking is more important than having your dominant side forward in grappling.

 

Because it is quicker, less telegraphed, and your balance is not committed, so that you can launch the optimum power shot depending on how your opponent reacted to the jab.

If your opponent slips past your power shot, balance recovery for throwing your next strike generally takes longer than if you'd thrown a jab.

Of course, all of this is dependent on the relative positions of you and your opponent, and how they have reacted to the incoming strike.