Wing Chun Plum Flower footwork... (Mui Fa)

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by jroe52, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    This footwork could be applied to Mui Fa Jong (plum flower wooden posts)... but I adapted it from william cheung lineage footwork. However, I have seen it done by william cheung a bit differently, where his side neutral stance is more t-like then parallel.

    Also, for you that are pigeon toed, just start the stance from the pigeon toe, rather then parallel. You will notice that pigeon toe saves you a foot adjustment, compared to my lineage.

    This is the footwork we learned for SLT... however again, in chum kiu books I've seen the footwork less parallel and more <--- (left foot) , then a forward neutral right foot...

    Hope some of you find this useful!

    Attached Files:

  2. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    yes I have played with plumflower poles. I don't know if it's just me or what.... but your post gave me a headache I am seeing spots now...thanks a whole lot jroe!!!

  3. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    Kew- Do,
    stay away from the mushrooms :D
  4. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    i forgot to mention the original pictures come from that site... i want to show some other t-step info later

    *** update***

    for the t-steps, there are two unique t-steps for each side neautral stance (think of them as two moves per row for that section)... that is why i divided them with a line.

    also the t-step from wing chun kwoon is also a proper t-step which I was shown previously. Anyone have good sources of information? My sifu has tips for me on Monday.

    Anyone have polls or stones to step on for plum flower footwork that doesn't involve digging?
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2007
  5. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    Did anybody else learn stepping with the plum flower posts on the ground first? You step in various patterns while sliding kicks into the base of the posts, scrape kicking down them and sweeping them.
  6. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    i have seen that in Randy Williams book III (as in the number 3, i forget the title).. but it has the ground work, for stepping between polls, poll design templates and the patterns for on the polls.

    also, i havnt built polls myself, this has helped me practice footwork on the ground by simply drawing an image of the footwork. i will make changes hopefully this weekend to show the different t-steps... and put notes.

    my sifu says this is a helping tool, but not the only way to properly do footwork and not all footwork can be so easily applied to the plum flower pattern... so im eager to ask him questions tonight

    this is not from my lineage... things are similiar yet a little different. however great pictures and it was worth getting!
  7. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    Notes from my Sifu, and recompiled by my friend Isiah: (william cheung tradition, using basic SLT footwork, not 2nd/3rd form...)

    Side Neutral stance

    A pre-contact (i.e. at a distance to and not touching your opponent) fighting stance in Wing Chun.

    How to get into the side neutral stance:

    1. feet about shoulder width apart but turned slightly on an angle
    2. weight evenly distributed on each foot (50/50 weight)
    3. knees pushing towards apex of triangle
    4. spine straight – push hips forward
    5. hands in guard position
    6. centerline facing a 45 degree angle from front.


    Side neutral stance (switching stances)

    Starting from the right side neutral stance pick up the left foot and turn it in. You should now be in a “pigeon toed” stance. Rotate the left hand over the right as you turn your right foot out. You should be in a left side neutral at this time.

    Remember to keep the width of your stance the same and have 50/50 weight distribution.

    Half front step – from side neutral stance

    From the side neutral stance move the front leg towards the centerline. Push forward on a diagonal landing on the ball of the foot. Weight should be 50/50 after step is completed. Move back foot up to adjust weight. Don’t narrow stance.

    After completion of the half front step you are now in a front stance.

    Note: the front stance is a stance you may find yourself when you make contact with the opponent.

    Half side step from the side neutral stance

    From the right side neutral stance pick up the right foot and push off with the left (in order to go to the right) and land on the balls of the feet. Remember to keep the same width between the feet as when you first started.

    If you want to go to the left the pick up the left foot first and push off with the right.

    Half front/back step from the front stance

    Starting from the right front stance (right foot forward) pick up the right foot and push off with the left to take the step forward. Remember to move the back foot up so you keep 50/50 weight distribution. Also keep the width of your stance the same as when you first started. Reverse the process to step to the rear.

    Half side step from the front stance

    Starting from a right front stance pick up the right foot and move it to the right landing on the ball of the foot following up by moving the left foot and equal distance. This is a half step to the right from a right front stance. Remember to always end up 50/50.

    Move the left foot to the side following up with the right foot. This is a half side step to the left from a right front stance.

    If you are in a left front stance reverse the roles as described above.

    Move the foot closest to the direction you would like to step in.

    Full front step (rear step) from a front stance

    From the right front stance (right foot forward) turn the right foot out by picking the foot off of the floor. Bring your left foot to your right foot. Push with your right foot as you step into a left front stance with your left foot. You should now be in a left front stance.

    Just reverse the process to get from a left to a right front stance.

    Remember to move your back foot up as you get into the front stance to keep 50/50 weight distribution. Also keep the same width in your stance that you initially had.

    Note: for a full rear step from a front stance you need to turn your rear foot in, then move your front foot towards your back foot (guarding the center) and step back into a front in the opposite front stance from where you began.

    On both front and back steps remember to turn the front foot in after the completion of the step to protect your groin.

    "T" step from a side neutral

    This step can be done front either a front or a side neutral stance.

    Bring your foot behind the heel of the supporting foot in a “T” position. However keep some distance between the feet for adequate balance.

    This step is a transitional step. From here you can step again or kick if needed.

    This step can also be done with the right foot in front of the left foot (as in the case of the right side neutral stance in which you are taking a step to the left).

    Full side step from the side neutral stance

    From the right side neutral stance move your left foot behind your right foot in a “T” stance. Then move your right foot back into a right side neutral position.

    Remember to always land on the ball of the feet so you are not flat footed.

    After the step is completed maintain 50/50 weight distribution.

    Also keep your guard up at all times with any of the steps.

    Note: reverse the step to step to the left from the right side neutral stance. However this time your right foot will step in front of the left foot in a “T” like position. Then move back into a right side neutral stance.

    From the left side neutral reverse the steps above.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  8. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    Did you already explain advancing step of wing chung in there i can not find it. To, you jroe52.
  9. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    do you mean the small half step? like... lets say your in a forward stance and want to move 6 inches forward, backwards, left or right?

    If this is what you mean... then you always lead with your lead foot! This helps you be more balanced, not trip and increases speed... plus you wont cross your feet.

    Here is an example from the notes:
    "Half side step from the side neutral stance

    From the right side neutral stance pick up the right foot and push off with the left (in order to go to the right) and land on the balls of the feet. Remember to keep the same width between the feet as when you first started.

    If you want to go to the left the pick up the left foot first and push off with the right. "

    REMEBER: this can be done forward, backwards, left or right... so lead with the lead foot.... (ball of the foot lands first then heel)... its a small like 6 inch step or so...

    I think I might be confused with your question... can you clear it up for me?

    ****update read this****
    maybe you have a different term for it? i did some research, which gives the advancing step a chinese name... but do you have the specific name or lineage? i can look into it. my new sifu is great, but he is very american... so he has taught us only american names for the footwork (and chinese/american names for handwork)...

    also different lineages do this slightly different... and mcdojos teach crap lol
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  10. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    Yes an i say this cause yes i study wing chung. I know with wing chung approach that it would some how be similiar. :confused:

    When i trianed under the teacher i had, he had did all three schools, he never said one was the preferred method in most approaches. He was probly only person that never outly said Lueng Ting is evil from wing chung. Now not that he used his approach cause we never had defined test or belt grading. He would just say," he was both good for wing chung and bad, but he has did more negative than positive in his writing. " I am not sure what the linage is.

    You have answered actually very close to how i was thinking in the post above an did finally see it in the bigger post above to.

    That instructor had at the time studied 20 year in wing chung an once showed me three different version of each of the hand form sulam tau, chum kiu and bil jee. That i know he also was taught by his instructor the shaolin Sui Lam Tau form that was in a wide horse stance he said it was one of the older ways of doing wing chung.

    Do know he never studied William Chueng(SP?) system thou.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  11. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    sorry fonb, i am still slightly confused... please restate your question as clearly possible. i think you are talking about a "advancing step" that has a chinese name that i do not know... if anyone can assist please do so!
  12. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    I just remember they were more under Yipmans linage so!
  13. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    Here are the diagrams I just finished for half-steps, and the full back step. The halfsteps are useful for when moving out of the way for an attack, but not to far, which then allwows to negate the power of an attack or to then quickly counterattack. they have many other uses as well (once im a sifu i'll tell you them hahha but not for 7 more years lol)... it is also good for quickly adjusting side to side or backwards, to adjust to your opponent.

    hope you guys like them!

    Attached Files:

  14. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    Fonb... this footwork is under William Cheung's Lineage, who is under Yipman. There are other sifus who were trained under Yipman as well, but they are from the same Great-grandmaster Yipman.

    William Cheung uses parallel feet, many other Wing Chun lineages use pigeon toe footwork.... in photos of yipman I have seen him do pigeon toe and parallel feet lol, so it may seem baffling.

    My theory is people do what is most effective and comfortable for them, then teach it to their students. However, what I do not like is if "its left out of my training it must not be important". I also do not like the endless arguing between lineages. Please honor your sifus without arguing :)

    To be honest, I love parallel footwork, it works for me. However, I now respect pigeon toe neutral stance, because if you go from neutral to side neutral it does save you an extra step (you only have to rotate one foot instead of two).

    Lastly, my previous sifu, who my new sifu trained under, (both trained william cheung), used different t-steps and and side-neutral stances. This version of t-step is found at under forms... However the side-neutral alternative version is found in William Cheung's Chum kiu book. This makes me wonder if there is different, advance footwork for Chum Kiu, or if there are different styles by sifus... I am still confused haha.

    Basically, in his chum kiu book, for a side neutral stance the feet are not turned yet parallel. Instead, one foot would face your central line, and one foot would be pigeon toed... such as a letter t.


    Attached Files:

  15. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member


    Just curious... Your quote:
    "However the side-neutral alternative version is found in William Cheung's Chum kiu book."

    Are you posting what you have learned, what you teach others, or what you have learned in a book? I'm confused on where you are getting this info from and how you are testing it's credibility.

  16. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    Oh! Thanks for the question.

    The first two pictures I created, are from the knowledge taught in my class... This sifu, trained under my previous sifu... both trained under william cheung, who trained under yip man.

    As my sifu said... the t-steps are not only executed in this fashion and they have different uses. (there are 2 t-steps for each side)...

    However... my previous sifu taught us the example shown in the 3rd picture. This is the type of footwork I was taught originally, and is shown in william cheung's chum kiu books... however it feels sloppy for me, and does not keep the neutral stance posture (knees in.. apex)...

    remember... this is parallel stance footwork.. not pigeon toe. however we start from a side-neutral stance rather then the forward neutral stance in our class as our default position... it doesnt really matter but it does save you some time adjusting.

    the original artwork that i based my drawings on can be found at the bottom of this page (same lineage, different sifu)

    the book can be found here:

    this makes me wonder... is william cheung and my previous sifu's footwork a more advance type of footwork from chium kiu or has it been modified to reach their needs? or is it bad photography?

    remeber... this footwork (the ones i based drawings off of) was taught for students learning SLT (although I already was an advance student... with about 36 weeks in slt training, and 2 years practice on my own)...

    randy williams has similiar plum flower footwork as well, under a different grand master, who also traces roots to yipman (link was posted above)

    I created this because there is a lack of information for clear footwork on the internet. If anyone wants to show their footwork, their lineages' footwork or their opinions please do so and place pictures if you can!
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2007
  17. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    Can anyone expand on this style footwork?

    Anyone have scans of randy william's footwork (its slightly different and slightly pigeon toed)... but he emphasise mui fa plum flower footwork in his 3rd book... i think he is under augistine fong who is under yipman.

    i don't teach wing chun yet, i only teach history and economics lol. I'm still a SLT student.... my current sifu is foti? and charles boness, who are both under william cheung. william cheung is under yipman.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  18. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    I was looking at the form .

    William Cheung does totally different forms did not know that now i do!
    Huh! that i think has different moves could just be i am used to doing them an not looking at someone else doing them.

    I am not that many years in to wing chung still early for me but love the fact that it is the only style i ever applied in a realstreet firght from just seeing on book. It was the bong it work perfectly. I had never used it before other than coping form a book. Than i went an found a teacher.

    Wing Chung is so simple an applies directly how it looks un like some Karate like the application taught for Goju Ryu. I have had to change it to fighting on the 45 degree from center. That is not how it is taught though.
    we dont raise the hand to center of face to cover knose like you style does . It looks more like yip here.
  19. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    you can see ok vidoes at but i find them rather inaccurate. our sifus would say the tan sao is meant to be wrist at chin level... rather then the lower solar plexus as seen in some yipman clips. and some other moves slightly higher... but this is footwork... if its not in your lineage it is still part of the wing chun system but i imagine there are different steps taught as well under various sifus. so if other people have good pics/drawings share them and state their purpose.

    remember wing chun uses alot of centerlines, parallel movements/steps and geometry.... so it may be why people use different angles/distance.

    ps: that video rocks... although he is modifiying it since he does alot of punches at the end hehe... but thats what we should do with wing chun, often we should pratice stuff we want to improve or enjoy upon
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  20. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    The step around the dummy are they how you are showing in the basic exercises. I say this cause i do most of my work around the dummy an that is where i base most of other practice on. :)

    Excuss me for getting of topic earlier jroe52. :eek:

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