Wing Chun defense against a MT-style roundhouse

you are being obtuse on purpose (either that or you are not as intelligent as i previously gave you credit for). the be all and end all of a fight? what on earth are you talking about? you are using an extremist arguement. stop it. you dont often see rabbit knees end a fight. does that mean we shouldnt train them? what about submarine kicks? i dont see fights ended by them very often, lets cut those out too. hell, lets take out flying knees, they arent too common. sod it all, lets have a boxing match instead.

so as soon as I start using examples from sports, it becomes a case of you training more for self defense so it doesnt really count. whereas using cro cop as an example who has an incredibly unorthodox method of sportfighting is perfectly ok.

ill say it again. not learning how to use kick catching techniques is watered down muay thai. i dont care how you personally fight or what your opinion is because this is a fact, not up for discussion. a fighter who has not practiced using these techniques is at a disadvantage against a good muay thai fighter (who will not only know and be able to use a variety of catch counters, but will also know what to do if he himself is caught)

 

No the other things are fine as there any strike can potentially be a fight ender - catching a kick is a part stage for it. The fights I have watched have been very entertaining and effective. Flying knees end figths hell even Rabbit Knees can end a fight but if nothing else when your tight in a clinch and against the ropes there is not much more you can do until you get space, better from a judges point of view to be busy than not I feel.

No you used one example I think from a fight I have not seen so cant really comment how instramental it was. CroCop was just an example of what happens when you do it wrong, but CroCop and people against him in MMA are able to grapple so it is more relevant to train this as you can do more with the grapple when you get it as you can hit the guy on the floor so a catch and sweep or push is more use. Under Thai rules you have to let the guy get up THIS IS MY POINT.

You really are getting a bee in your bonnet about this - the environments are different. Also I have NEVER said, not once that I am more sport than self defence. I have ALSO SAID plenty of times there are a number of techniques in self defence I will use that I cant under sporting rules even MMA. I did say it was my view and you taking a cheap shot at my interlect really sucks mate.

Its just my view on it.

 

did you have a point here?

im sorry, so catching a leg and knocking seven bells out of someone while they are off balance is not effective because you dont have to let him up afterwards?

Ill point out (for seemingly the millionth time) I am not, and never was, talking about a MMA environment. this thread was never about MMA. the original post where you stated that your muay thai instruction did not include using catching techniques had nothing to do with MMA. I am not taking a cheap shot here- if you really cannot figure it out then I dont need to make cheap shots on your behalf. I am not going to go looking through all my fights from thailand and counting how many times someone has effectively used a leg catching technique, but i dont know where you have seen fights where they arent used. cos it sure as hell isnt thailand. maybe you were watching a tkd match and didnt notice

 

Could each of you two (Sonshu and Ikken) remind me what you are trying to argue? I'm getting kinda lost here even after reading through the thread.

 

Ikken is saying kick catching is an essential part of MT training in response to Sonshu previously stating that when studying MT he was taught not to catch kicks...

Since then it has been a discussion around the various pro's and con's of catching kicks and how essential they are to MT.

 

Why is this even a big deal? Catching a kick happens, whether you plan for it or you don’t. What does it have to do with a specific style/system in the first place?

Either you can, or you can’t. Hell, I’ve seen kids in Karate classes have this happen to them, but it wasn’t regulated to a set discipline. Why is this even an argument, I don’t even know.

 

catching a kick in muay thai is not as simple as standing there and grabbing at the foot shen yin. if you did that you would probably get cut in half or pushed off balance by the kick and have no real counter. the follow up is also important because if you havent drilled what to do over and over you will hesitate and if the other guy is any good you are going to get a smack in the face where you are exposed. of course it isnt specific to muay thai, i dont even know why you said that. its like saying a cross is specific to boxing.

 

Unless of course, the kick made contact at the hips, in which case youd probably get cut into thirds, and unless you were that one Kinght in The Holy Grail, the fight would be over.

 

In Praying Mantis we are generally taught not to try to catch kicks or otherwise defend them with the hands. The difference between the power of the legs and the power of the hands is just too great. We are taught moves to deal with the situation should we accidentally catch a kick, but it is not generally a situation we try to get into. We usually prefer to either jam the kick with a kick of our own, or, if that's not possible, dodge the kick and try to counter-kick the inner thigh of the opponent's kicking leg. If you have good ability in something like Iron Palm or Cotton Palm then slapping the opponent's kicking leg with your hand can be an effective method, but only people who have undergone a lot of special training can effectively do this. Generally speaking it's better to fight legs with legs, imo.

 

yeah... you dont really grab the leg with your hand.

 

I have dropped ths point as I was argueing more from the WCKF person not wanting to try to catch the kick and also the difference of it being from a fighting aspect or a sporting bout.

Seems Ikken was just sticking to his MT guns and we were at cross purposes. I was also not advised to try to catch a leg, if you do then good but its more a reflex and attack of opprtunity rather than something to aim for.

Still seems we are talking different things so I am gonna leave it.

 

Ikken,

Would it be more accurate to call it "shelving" a kick? At least from the bit of MT I'm gleamed from Inasanto and Fong seminars, it seems like you are shelving it on your forearm as you move in to punch to the face.

- Matt

 

I never said that it was, EASY, but I AM saying is that it "just happens". It can be planned or it can happen by chance.

I've witnessed plenty of matches where this has occured (by chance or otherwise) and it has little to do with any particular fighting discipline. I'm not speaking to you on the "muay thai" part, but on the aforementioned Wing Chun/catch-kicking improbability aspect here.

 

I've never heard the term shelving myself. And it is often actually the hand that is used to 'catch/grab' the foot though in fairness this is more common for straight kicks like push kicks and teaps.

 

yeah- when the kick comes in you wrap your hand round the leg. usually moving either into the kick or out of it, either way so you dont catch it at the apex of its power. cos that hurts >_<

Shen Yin- im not really sure what your point is?