Wing Chun defense against a MT-style roundhouse

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by RAGINGbuddha, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    you are missing out then. im sorry but i dont see why you wouldnt learn this stuff if you did muay thai, its a core part of the defense against kicks. cro cop never koed anyone with that kick in k-1 by the way.
     
  2. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Eh, the Thai kick isn't all that slow if you actually know how to do it right guys. . . . . . . .
     
  3. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    But in MMA as soon as they started trying to grab legs and catch kicks he started doing it for fun.

    Thats my point.
     
  4. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    im sorry, so because an exceptionally good k-1 level striker went and owned a bunch of guys who cant hold a candle to him in stand up, using his phenomonally fast (as in, very few other people on the planet can kick like he does) kick, this makes learning how to catch kicks and counter them useless?

    we dont disagree often sonshu but that is plain stupid. you cannot pick one extreme example in an art and say "see, that proves my point". it would be no different to me saying that being a southpaw whos fightplan revolves around the left roundhouse is the best way to fight in muay thai just because Samkor Keatmontep does it.
     
  5. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Your missing my point here Ikken and we dont often disagree. My point is in a MT environment catching a kick is 100% a valid thing to do as about 40% of everything coming at you is kicks the rest being punches, knees elbows and the odd once in a blue moon throw.

    However in a real fight environment once you start looking to grapple there are many other things better to do than trying to catch the kick. Crop Cop is exceptional but even looking at most K1 level fights I hardly ever see a kick caught unless its late in a fight and all parties are shattered and hence throwing tired kicks which are slower.

    My point is its a hard thing to do with any degree of confidence and simply trying to catch a skilled kickers kick is a darn tough job. This is how it was explained to me when doing most of my striking training. If you do it then its more be sub contious action than direct design.
     
  6. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    hold on, since when did this become about MMA? the thread title is muay thai defenses against kicks, ive been talking about muay thai, and you said that you didnt learn this stuff when you were doing muay thai. I dont do MMA and wasnt talking about it so i dont see that its relevant, which is why i discredited using cro cop as an example.

    and the k-1 isnt muay thai. the majority of those guys would get killed by a champion muay thai fighter in thai rules, like when masato fought Suriya. Masato may be a k-1 champ but the fighters in thailand are a step above them. And the guys who are from a muay thai background like Buakaw, John Wayne Parr, Shane Chapman- they all use them pretty effectively.
     
  7. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Don't worry, San Sho probably thinks anything throwing knees is doing Muay Thai.
     
  8. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Hey Ikken, would you happen to have a link to the Masato vs. Suriya vid bout by any chance? I’ve been studying the similarities of Dragon in comparison to Muay Thai and so far have been enjoying the Muay Thai vids all over the net.

    Lemme’ know, okay.
     
  9. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    The sad part is, Leopard and Dragon share very strikingly similar qualities to Muay Thai. Especially Leopard, whilst Dragon is mostly with the roundhouses.
     
  10. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    ill try and hunt it down but if you want lots of good MT vids join the forum over at www.k-1fans.com

    they have a muay thai multimedia forum, HEAPS of full fight videos.
     
  11. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    What a div!
     
  12. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    When your trying intentionally to grab a foot being swung at you your either very gifted or stupid.

    Its not often that anyting big results form a Thai kick being caught its usually just a count as the guy gets up and carry on. If you sacrifice defence for catching a kick its not a smart move tying to catch kicks.
     
  13. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I dunno Sonshu Im with Ikken on this I've seen PLENTY of Thai fights where grabbing the foot is done to very good effect both for roundkicks and straight kicks. Its really not that much of a limiting move and I wouldnt say its that risky as most of the time obviously you will just crush but if you know your range often the chance to catch a kick presents itself (I know this because people much better than me have frequently caught my kicks). Say for example you hooked a teap then you could pull the leg up and push forward to try and off balance the guy, attack their supporting leg with a low kick, attack the leg you've caught with knees or elbows, throw a kick of your own etc. etc. and likewise there are plenty of things the guy can do to defend, pull his knee back in and draw you into a clinch then follow up with elbows for instance.

    Off course someone isn't going to try and catch a hugely powerful high roundkick to the head but catching a kick is not as bad a tactic as you seem to present (at least not in a MT enviroment). For a roundkick or sharpshin your also not supposed to stand still, take the full brunt of the blow and then catch it, your supposed to be moving off the kick so that even if it does hit its full momentum wont reach you. Also if your gonna get hit anyway catching the leg is a good way to make sure you get a chance to deliver something back.
     
  14. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    well that means pretty much every fightr in thailand must be gifted or stupid because i cant remember the last fight from there where kicks werent grabbed.

    2003 KOMA tournament- Buakaw beat his final opponent by catching their kick and countering with a straight knee and elbow while they were off balance. knocked him out cold. in the same fight he caught a couple of other kicks- one resulted in him pulling Timor off balance, one in a headkick, and one in a double kick combination. another resulted in a hard kick to the ribs, another in a bodyshot. and thats just the one MT fight i watched this morning, if i had time to watch some more i could find a boatload more examples for you.
     
  15. AikenD

    AikenD New Member

    Quan Sau is correct against a high kick, but it should be preceded with a low kick - the Quan Sau is still there to stop the leg coming through - If your Quan Sau is correct, then its rolling motion should remove the power left in the kick (if any) - Using Quan Sau also offers you the oppertunity to change the Bong Sau arm to Jam Sau should the attacking leg change direction

    So, Low kick then Quan Sau would be a good idea against a high kick.

    Regards

    AikenD
     
  16. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I have watched a fair amount of Thai fights and never seen a caught kick being the end of the fight.

    I have however seen on a few occassions people grab it and get ko'd. Best example was however in a MMA event Maurice Smith vs Mark Coleman.

    If you catch it there is a lot you can do but if you try and dont then...........It hurts, possible fingers getting bent back etc.
     
  17. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    As has been said it's probably not a great strategy for MMA matches but I have literally seen tonnes of MT fights where it is used to incredibly good effect (when I get back to London in a week I'll post some on yousendit if you like). Of course it can backfire... I've seen a fight where a guy got pulled in and KO'ed with an elbow after catching a kick but most techniques can backfire if your unlucky or the your opponent is good doesn't make it any less of a viable technique. Have you not noticed how often legs are grabbed in MT bouts?

    Oh and grabbing a leg alone is obviously not going to end a fight but whats done to follow it up can... see Ikkens last post for one such example.
     
  18. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    MMA is one of the best fields to catch kicks as many places do train like that. Its just not my cup of tea, and as I said its possibly not a good cup for WCKF people to drink out of.

    And its never a fight ender if its just an opener but still a highish risk one!
     
  19. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    and? how many hundreds of kicks were thrown in these fights that didnt end it? saying a move isnt useful because it isnt a fight ender (even though it can be since it isnt a specific move, there are plenty of counters you can perform after you catch a kick) is a foolhardy reason to dismiss it.

    so you will take an example where it didnt work and use that as evidence, but when i offer an example where it obviously did work you ignore it completely. nice debating skill there Sonshu, you could get a job working for the bush administration with a thought process like that.

    this isnt even an arguement- kick counters should never be a neglected part of muay thai training. period, full stop, end of the sentence, thats it. if you are, then you are learning a watered down muay thai.
     
  20. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Just not seen it happen in any fights I have watched where its been the be all and end all of the fight. Sticking to standard shots seems to be more practical and less of a risk thats all I am saying.

    No as I said I had not seen that 1 fight, I do not ignore kick counters at all but dont train to catch kicks as I feel its a big risk thats all my view. You feel differently which is cool but then we train with slightly different needs in mind.

    Mine is largly self defence and sporting considerbly second where as your perhaps the other way?
     

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