Wing Chun a naming and killing martial art?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Nathaniel1337, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    For breathing easier especially when under strain, as any asthmatic probably knows. If you don't, you are welcome.

    The tongue into the hard palate is part of qi gong training, which is another place YGKYM is used.

    There are TCM explanations as to why the tongue is held this way, but you don't need to rely "qi" theory to actually feel the difference or understand the practical reasons.

    It makes it easier to breath diaphragmatically using just the nose, which is important in some of the deeper, harder qi gong.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  2. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Thank you sir:)
     
  3. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    I was told the same thing a long time ago bro and the more I look at the system the more it makes sense to me that originally it most likely was a bladed art which because of the Buddhist influence also had a health body and mind system with it,like any good Martial Art health and defence,so much lost over the years me thinks,Muay Thai was much the same Bladed weapons,wooden weapons and people that were warriors becoming monks and using the art as health and defence only systems ie non violence where possible :)
     
  4. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I thought you might like to know that the tongue against the roof of the mouth helps prevent Dim Mak no touch knockouts as well. :)
     
  5. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    That must be why George Dillman is still alive:)
     
  6. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    You are absolutely right. My old Chinese sifu had us apply YGKYM this way in sparring. From a turned stance it also works well from the side when, for example, you sweep or throw your opponent and maintain control of his arm. You put all your weight right on your opponent through your knee. By turning you can either drive your knee into his chest or conversely into his neck.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  7. Fujian Animal

    Fujian Animal Banned Banned

    that was a joke, right? i mean, there is no such thing as 'no touch knockouts', unless you are using sound, and human beings do not have it in our ability to make such a sound with our natural windpipes

    also, i am not really familiar with the whole 'tongue on the roof of the mouth' thing, even as a wing chun practitioner, BUT, i can tell you for a fact that this secret knowledge is not necessary to develop a good wing chun practitioner, i mean it probably has a purpose and it probably can be beneficial in some way, BUT, you dont need it to win a fight, which is probably one of the reasons i never really looked into it, i wouldnt consider it nearly as important as knowing HOW to breathe, for example, when chain punching

    and in regards to yee chi kim yeung ma, i would say it is an awesome stance for training, and also the most natural stance from the first sucker punch you must defend against, but for the rest of the fight, YCKYM is out

    and ive never heard from anyone, not from a doctor, not from another wingchun master, not from a sports coach or anyone, that you should only breathe through your nose, and i myself had childhood asthma, it almost killed me, but from every expert ive ever talked to, be it boxing, yoga, wing chun or basketball, i was always told to breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth, this is very basic and its even taught in shaolin temple kung fu and anger managment, just sayin
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  8. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    So you're an expert Wing Chun fighter with no knowledge of Taoist and Buddhist breathing techniques? Noted.

    No, breathing in through the nose out through the mouth is not taught at Shaolin. Who cares what the rest of those people told you? From both a Shaolin and Hung ga perspective, you're dead wrong.

    Maybe everyone in your life taught you that because they really had no training in actual breathing techniques associated with the ancient styles you claim...that thought never crossed your mind, I imagine. Your ultra combo chain punches never required such a thing, obviously.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  9. Fujian Animal

    Fujian Animal Banned Banned

    your words, not mine
     
  10. Fujian Animal

    Fujian Animal Banned Banned

    'no touch knockout' lol

    i'm sure you're right, and everyone else is wrong
     
  11. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Sarcasm, due to your apparent lack of knowledge on these subjects.

    What are you blabbering on about no touch knockouts for?

    They are wrong if the subject is the breathing methods associated with Southern Chinese kung fu...as well as Shaolin meditation, daoyin, etc.

    You have clearly not studied this subject well, nor has anyone else you mentioned in your weak appeal to authority.

    YOU have no EXPERIENCE in Shaolin Chan or Daoist breath training, correct? Nor do your doctors, coach, friends, priest, mother....

    So why are you giving us their opinions, in this thread, as supporting evidence that you've no need of it, being a Wing Chun street fighter? (sarcasm again). You are no such thing.

    No experience with the Shaolin qi gong sets, zazen practices, standing and seated meditation methods, the various Brocades...shall I continue??
     
  12. geezer

    geezer Valued Member


    Hare, pardon my confusion, but I don't see where Fujian is so far off track. There are a lot of different approaches to WC, but the branch of the Yip Man lineage I spent the most time in stressed simplicity in everything. Breathing was supposed to be relaxed and "natural" ...but in the forms, especially SNT, the breath would be drawn in through the nose and let out through the gently parted lips.

    Now this doesn't always agree with what I've heard is taught in some other Southern Chinese boxing, but that's how it was.
     
  13. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Nothing could be more simple than nasal breathing from the diaphragm, colloquially known as "baby breathing"...but anyway..

    He's off track because he is basically trolling my response to Fire Cobra's question, which asked about placement of the tongue in breathing methods which happen to be associated with zen meditation, Taoist meditation, and even some forms of Yogic meditation, and so sometimes (not always) show up in places like Wing Chun schools. He never needed it....he's a street wise Wing Chun fighter....etc etc...he already knows how to breath properly when chain punching...etc etc...

    Back to reality, most people breath poorly by default, due to stress and a number of other factors they use their shoulders, upper chest to breath, can't regulate their breath especially under duress, etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with breathing in the nose out the mouth, but nothing inherently good about it either.

    Fully nasal breathing uses few muscles, relies mostly on the diaphragm for action instead of the upper body and mouth, and has a couple other benefits such as preventing the throat from drying over long periods of time, hence the benefits for loooong periods of meditation (or sleep, for that matter). Some yogic methods are so esoteric, they literally alternate nostrils (left, right etc).

    In my own practices, nasal breathing is essential for several forms of hard (endurance related) qi gong as well as proving useful in BJJ practice to simply conserve gas. In Hung ga forms work or shadowboxing, it will depend on timing. In that environment, breathing changes depending on situation, and there are many places where exhalation through the mouth does occurs, such as during the "WAH" of tiger techniques.

    I think what really threw Fujian off was the Dillman joke that went over his head.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I know what a brocade is! It's when you get your bros together to stop your psycho ex from spoiling date night. I'm a Douchebro, and I know this.
     
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Really? I thought "baby breathing" was when you breathe using the muscles on the back, which is the hardest muscle set to isolate after lateral breathing.
     
  16. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Infants are considered what is known as "obligate nasal breathers", even though they aren't truly "obligate" (they can mouth breath when they need to, ie congestion), they do prefer it.

    "Baby breathing" refers to the sleepy, "stress free" breathing/sleeping babies do, in contrast to what they typically use their mouths for (eating, crying).
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    ....and boxing :evil:
     
  18. ned

    ned Valued Member

    As I understand, baby breathing is the same as what is termed in tai chi
    'buddha breathing' ; that is, where the stomach expands as the breath is drawn in and contracts as the breath is exhaled ,tongue at top of mouth,mouth shut.
     
  19. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Right, you'll find the nasal breathing and tongue+palate placement in Buddhist and Daoist arts and even Indian ones.

    "Oral airway resistance" is the key component of this. For babies, it's just mechanically easier for them to nose breath (unless congested).

    For adults, it's a bit more even (adults can effectively breathe either way), but with proper tongue placement, a strong "Dan tian", and relaxed muscles, oral airway resistance can be minimized. It just comes down to the fact that the breathing through the mouth (inhaling or exhaling) can sometimes be harder because the tongue can increase oral airway resistance. Most adults will not notice their oral airway resistance....until they suffer for instance a panic attack, and begin hyperventilating and swallowing air (another place where nasal breathing can help).

    Again, nothing wrong with any particular way of breathing, but some forms of breathing are just going to be more comfortable for long periods of meditation or even stressful muscle-work, and so they found their way into different meditation and qi gong practices (some of which made their way into various kung fu styles, like Hung ga and Tai Chi).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  20. Fujian Animal

    Fujian Animal Banned Banned

    I never understood the concept of the non-existent. What is the dantien, and what is chi?

    I mean, I understand that balance relates to your belly button, and I understand the kiai or spirit shout, and how it relates to your stomach. But chi? Dan tian? I muzt admit, I never quite grasped the concept. But that hasnt stopped me from learning external energy and physical power using force, leverage, momentum, balance and muscle structure/body mechanics.

    Can you break it down in laymen terms?
     

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