Will Tracy's web site on Kenpo

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Oct 30, 2006.

  1. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I kinda stopped reading it, and choose instead to challenge them to fights every few days hoping that eventually someone will take me up on it :Angel:
  2. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Your on Mister :p

    Maybe you can knock some sense into me as to why I Moderate this section :bang: :p :D
  3. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Bring it brudda! :mad:
  4. HongKongFooey

    HongKongFooey Valued Member

    Where is your proof?

    Do you have anything other than speculation when referring to this issue? To blame Ed Parker for the death of this young man is pretty lame. For all that anyone knows, Dick Tercell COULD have committed suicide. If this was all about Ed Parker wanting the crest design, then why didn't Will Tracy sue Ed Parker after he supposedly copied the crest. Will Tracy would have been within his rights if this were true, since he supposedly obtained the rights to the crest after Dick Tercell died.

    Please provide proof. The only person that knew what really happened was Dick Tercell and he is dead.
  5. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    This pretty much sums up where Gary is coming from.
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I am just posting some of the stuff Will has metioned and wondering what others think of what he said.
    I did add a few opinions but I am trying to get the articles Will wrote discussed, not me or my life, but what Will Tracy wrote about.

    AK and EP and all the early years as he remembers them the time line the story he wrote. This is about Will Tracy and his article's, is it not?

  7. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    The tricks were being done with the rope and Will mentions it,

    I am not blaming EP for a death I am blaming him for not acknowledging that the tricks were being done, Will wrote it not I.

    Read the article first before saying something I did not say.
    The idea that he still wanted the crest and irritated Will is what happened.
    According to Will, Read the article.

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2006
  8. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well Gary, as an old history professor once told us, "You're responsible for whom you quote." in other words, if you quote Will Tracy and then proceed on the assumtion that what he says is true, then you're making that assertion also. When you said disparaging things about Ed Parker not being "Man Enough" that was YOU, not Will Tracy. All you have to go on is one undocumented source, and there you go saying EP lacked in the manhood department. You accused him of sending this poor fellow to hell etc. True, you BASED your accusations on something written by Will Tracy, but it is YOU making the accusations here, not Tracy.
  9. HongKongFooey

    HongKongFooey Valued Member

    OK I read the article again.

    Will Tracy himself said that he knew of the technique that Dick Tercell supposedly used to kill himself. Why didn't Will Tracy tell Dick Tercell's parents about the technique? Why blame Ed Parker? Will himself said that Dick Tercell didn't even train with Parker anymore. He went to Kung Fu.

    So why scapegoat Ed Parker for not mentioning the technique? Could it be that Will Tracy had another agenda? Why not bring this stuff up while Ed Parker was still alive? Will knew of the technique. He said so himself. Maybe he just blamed Parker to spite him.

  10. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Ok my opinions are to be that, but lets get back to the article and what do you think of it.

    I believe I am looking for others input as well as trying to put it out for others to read and comment, I am responsible for my thought's yes, but what about the fact that maybe Will does have an agenda that is a possibility, correct.

    Now why is his agenda any bigger then others?

    I would like input as to others and yes I gave my felling's based on if it is the way Will mentioned, if not then it is not going to be those feeling's but I am going to be hard pressed to be convinced. So make Will the bad guy but have an arguement for it.

    But here is the point we don't know if Will helped the parents, it is not there all we know is what Will is saying and he ended up with the Crest..

    So Are we saying Will is wrong? Jimmy Wing Woo might have said something but the whole thing I am saying is according to Will if that is to believed it is a very lousy thing to have done.
    If he would of come forth then all this would not be talked about. Because Will, probably would not be irritated about it.

    I am expressing some views based on this now I could take the position that Will is wrong but since he mentioned it I am taking the position he felt that way and for why.
    Why would he say it? Agenda, I am not sure, he really knew Ep for a long time and he clearly mentioned this was written years ago but not wanting to write a book, the net came along in about 95 and that is when he put it out he had it before but he was able to tell the world back then.

    Stricky looking at it as if it was correct and not doubting, you guys can do that and I will concede or not.

    This is all strickly for arguement and arguements sake only, I can take either side and still be happy as long as we stick to the article.

    Last but not least if we stick to the articles it is better. If I have an opinion I will mention, if you have one mention but don't attack me over it. It is for arguements sake ok?

    I asked for nothing outside of the articles but your thoughts and mine. Not Wills history outside of the articles. Sort of a court room drama. If we cando it like that, it will be better.

    How come he got the Crest? Anyone know different then what Will is saying?

  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Ok, Lets do it this way Will mentions

    Ed Parker would later claim it was his brother who designed the patch and put some of that concept artwork in his 1982 Infinite Insights into Kenpo : Mental Stimulation, but objective person comparing Tercell's emblem and drawings Ed claimed were the original for the patch can see they only slightly resemble Tercell's design. Ed Parker knew he didn't own the rights to the patch so he later changed the design slightly to a more narrow top and thinner, sharper points and a rounded lower white area, probably to make the patch looks more like the design he was claiming as his brother's design. (Ed Parker's later patch is below.)
    When Tercell left Ed Parker to train with Woo, he refused to sign his rights to the design over to Ed Parker.

    Dick Tercell died in 1962 while I was in San Francisco. He had hanged himself, and it was ruled a suicide. I don't believe it was. I knew Tercell was deeply involved in the so-called mysteries of Kung Fu, and he had told me many of the fantastic feats claimed for Kung Fu masters, and the power of Chi.

    Al was the one who introduced me to Tercell, and the first time I met him was at a restaurant in Temple City (south east of Pasadena). Ed had asked us to talk to Tercell to get him to sign his right to the patch over to him. Tercell never did. But Al and I were both impressed with Dick's complete devotion to mysticism of Kung Fu. Tercell had made all of the weapons in Woo's school, and had made a knife out of a file for Ed Parker. He told us how Kung Fu masters could put the point of a spear on their throat and walk into it, breaking the shaft. Al told him we had seen this at Marseille in Northern California, and Dick took out a chopsticks and said he was practicing putting it on his throat so he could develop Chi to break it. Al asked to see the chopsticks, put it on his own throat and broke it. Dick was impressed to say the least.

    One of the Kung Fu feats Tercell told us about was how Kung Fu masters could be hanged and it would not hurt them. I believe this is what Tercell was practicing when he died. And the circumstances of his death confirm that in my mind.
    When I mentioned this Kung Fu hanging to James Wing Woo when Al and I met with him in 1997, Woo said there was no such thing, and that Tercell had killed himself over a girlfriend.
    I don't believe that at all. I met with Tercell at least a dozen times, and had told him about Tai Chi Master Yin in San Francisco to whom Al and I introduced Ed Parker. Yin was a friend of our family, and he demonstrated Chi by holding a bird in his open hand and asked Ed to scare it without touching it. Ed did everything he could to get the bird to fly. It flapped its wings and tried to lift off, but it could not. Chi was neutralizing the force of the birds feet. Then Yin told Ed to watch and the bird lifted off and flew to the corner of the room.
    I told Tercell about this, and just before I left for San Francisco in May 1962, I told him I would introduce him to Yin when he came to San Francisco. This was something Tercell really wanted to see. As I said, Tercell's life was dedicated to Kung Fu and he was very much into the mysteries. He was fascinated when I told him I knew one of the EhWahQuen Boxers (from the Boxer Rebellion} who had been shot seven times, but none of the bullets broke his skin. This was another person I told him I would introduce him to when he came up to see our school in San Francisco. So I just don't believe he would end it over a girl.
    I know when I came back to Pasadena in 1963, I asked several of Parker's former students who had gone with Woo about Tercell. None of them wanted to talk about him. None said anything about a girlfriend, and more revealing were the looks and the sense of fear and the uneasiness they had when I asked if they had trained for a Kung Fu hanging technique. On the other hand, no one who was teaching or practicing a hanging technique would want to admit they were in any way involvement in the death of Tercell.

    Dick's parents were devastated by his death, and desperate to have their son cleared of suicide because they were Catholic and their son could not be buried with rites. They believed their son had been practicing a Kung Fu hanging technique, but couldn't prove it. I told them what Dick had told me about the technique, but the Catholic Priest needed some evidence that someone had taught him that. His parents had investigated every possibility for why Dick would hang himself. Their son was full of life, never morose, just as I had known him. And they never said anything about a girlfriend.
    Ed Parker, who knew about the hanging technique, told Tercell's parents it did not exist. Of course Ed had never trained in the technique, and never taught it. But still he told Tercell's parents there was no such thing - not that he didn't know of one, but flat out, that it did not exist. This was a sore spot for me, and Ed understood why, after Dick Tercell's parents assigned his rights to the Kenpo emblem to me, I never gave it to him.

    What do you think of this story? Any comment?

  12. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Will Tracy mentions

    I have nothing against American Kenpo. It isn't Kenpo Karate, and it's
    dishonest for anyone to say it is. And I hold American Kenpo to the same
    standard Professor set the standard for Kenpo Karate. Ed Parker set the
    standard for American Kenpo in his Infinite Insights series, and the
    forms and techniques he set out in Vol. V. Anyone who deviates from the
    "REQUIRED TECHNIQUES... (In the order they are to be taught)" is not
    teaching American Kenpo.

    I'll say,
    Will does not believe Kenpo Karate and American Kenpo are the same as he mentions in the above item.

    Kenpo Karate was what Chow taught and then EP took some of it and redesigned it to American Kenpo, Of course Chow changed the name a couple of time's but I believe The Kenpo Karate that Chow first had is the way of the Tracy's and is what Will is mentioning. So if Chow got it from Mitose it is to be considered Pure and not changed as much or diluted is my guess.

    Now here is something to think about if it is in techs, because of the way Chow did it where did all the Katas come from?

    So if EP changed it and added and made mention of it in a book that is the AK Will is talking about. So You have Tracy's, EP's, Chow's and then down the road many have splintered and changed it, and if they are going to do that it is not AK as EP taught.

    I think the people at Larry Tatums would agree.

    Any thoughts?

  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I would ask if the "heart" of American Kenpo was changed. If the heart is still there in full then it is still American Kenpo even if the rest has changed. So is it the "Required Techniques" that define the heart of American Kenpo or is it the principles that are demonstrated by those techniques?

    I don't know, but that is the line of questioning I would put forth to determine the answer.

    Now to discuss Ed Parker's American Kenpo, I believe that it should be noted that Mr. Parker was known to be very agile (fast) and to put things into context, I have heard that he was able to perform techniques effectively but when he taught those same techniques to others, they did not always work well. So as a result, when creating American Kenpo, Mr. Parker had the idea that one would find what worked for them and discard what didn't. So American Kenpo may have been intended to give a student a set of principles for which it was up to the student to develop the techniques that worked for them.

    Now I don't know if what I just said is true or not, but one thing is for sure based on just about every account, American Kenpo was not intended to be static (never changing).

    So let's take Tracy's Kenpo... here there is a specific list of hundreds of techniques one learns, but it is known that not all techniques will work for everyone. The goal of the student is to learn them all but in doing so, find the few that they really like and those would be the one's they might use in a real situation/fight.

    What Will Tracy might be alluding to is basically that with American Kenpo, the original students learned what worked for them... for instance, maybe a student learned "short-person with big belly" Kenpo techniques because those worked best for them. However, then the next generation of American Kenpo students under that teacher would all learn only "short-person with big belly" Kenpo even if they were a tall person with tiny belly. The reason is that the teacher only would teach what he found works for him and would not give the students the "full" spectrum of techniques from which to choose from.

    If this is the case, I can't agree with Mr. Tracy. IMHO, the Tracy Kenpo techniques are a great list, if not only for their effectiveness but also in the historical sense. However, giving someone dozens of techniques to learn each belt level does not guarantee that a student will understand the principles that make the technique work. You could have a student know 120 techniques and be an exceptional fighter, at the same time you could have another student that knows the same 120 techniques not be able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag because they just know techniques but can't put the pieces together... those pieces being the principles and application against resistance.

    Anyway, this is my opinion, American Kenpo is often confused to be a list of many techniques, but I believe that what Mr. Parker was trying to do was to make it a list of principles (not specific techniques). Of course to learn all the principles, one needs core techniques. The only question I would wonder is what is the minimum core techniques needed. I don't believe it to be hundreds.
  14. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Boxing has about 5 Techs

    Hi Rebel Wado,
    You mention,
    Anyway, this is my opinion, American Kenpo is often confused to be a list of many techniques, but I believe that what Mr. Parker was trying to do was to make it a list of principles (not specific techniques). Of course to learn all the principles, one needs core techniques. The only question I would wonder is what is the minimum core techniques needed. I don't believe it to be hundreds.

    I'll say,

    The hundreds of techs is really something that can be conversed over for ages and never come to an understanding.
    The Boxing profession and now Kick Boxing and others who get into the ring they use very few of the number of techs, laid down in a teaching enviroment.

    I was watching an old video of the 64 Internationals and to mention it was hokey compared to todays match's is an understatment. But they were following rules of engagement of the time, that did not lead to the dangerous conditions that happen today. When rules change we need to also.

    Many of the Grandmasters of the Katas that came out of Okinawa are to be commended on their ability to draw from their mind the kata's.
    Just like some one reciting from memory a very long address without notes.
    Or being able to win a spelling bee, a secretary who knows all the words with out today's spelling checkers. Very learned and good at what they do.

    So they devised this system instead of fighting they showed everyone how good they were in performing Kata and they were commmended for it.

    As a white belt you learn 12 moves in the first one say, and go from there.
    Working up to the last one for Master to over 100 moves lets say.
    So in my way of thinking there are not just 100 moves there are many many more that your body is doing to accomplish this "dance".

    But now if we just want to talk about how to defend yourself and you can do it pretty good, is take up boxing which has very few moves of offense and defense.
    So when EP and others were doing their thing of making up this AK or Kara Ho they were comparing it to Boxing and so if you knew 50 techs you were better then the boxer who only knew 5 and so on.

    The thing about fighting and winning is not in how much you know but how well you can pull it off and the shape you are in and the pain you can handle.
    How much do you need, well for many years, a single sucker punch. Many still practice only against that...LOL Mistake in todays ring.

    They used to say the Kung Fu Tai Chi guy could strike and enter your body cavity with his hand and pull out your heart...LOL Sure.

    So AK that is watered down and does not do 100 techs and the boxer who is only doing 5 who will win? Probably the guy who gets in the good right cross and knocks the other one out. :) Or a couple of left hooks to the head and body then the right cross or a combination of 5 strikes and knocks him out.

    Then the good grappler comes along slips the punch's and takes an angle and gets behind the puncher and chokes him out. Wait, not fair you say?
    Different rules.

    In many countries the many techs were only to condition the mind and body for the few that are needed to win.

    The bodys condition is one of the keys, the other is awareness and being able to get out of the way or not beng there, then perform something to protect yourself.

    But to be able to get the belts you need to know say 400 techs to be a Black Belt then that is the number, to win the fight might only take 5 of them.

    Regards, Gary

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